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Former President Obama and comedian Marc Maron discuss the challenges facing democracy, the impact of social media, and the importance of civic responsibility, integrity, and finding common ground.
Published October 13, 2025
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Barack Obama
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Interviewer: How you doing?
Interviewer: We've aged.
Interviewer: I'm a little hunched over.
Interviewer: How you doing, Mr. President?
Interviewer: It's good to see you.
Interviewer: How have you been?
Interviewee: Well, you know, I'm okay.
Interviewer: Nice to see you, Brendan.
Interviewee: Yeah, nice to meet you.
Interviewee: How come he's in a suit, man?
Interviewee: Because everything else is in the watch.
Interviewee: Yeah, I know.
Interviewee: He's a suit guy.
Interviewee: Like, I had a, when you were first on, I was like, what am I going to wear?
Interviewer: Well, you're casual.
Interviewee: Yeah, I am, because I knew you would be here.
Interviewer: I think we're going to wear it this way.
Interviewer: Oh, we're in here.
Interviewee: I think we're going to wear it this way.
Interviewee: Do you basketball?
Interviewee: Well, yeah, I'm signing them.
Interviewee: Stuff gets stacked up that I'm supposed to sign.
Interviewee: Believe me, you remember my old garage, right?
Interviewee: It's similar.
Interviewee: It's a little neater.
Interviewer: But not much.
Interviewer: Okay.
Interviewee: We're rolling on both?
Interviewer: We're rolling on both?
Interviewer: Yeah, everything's good.
Interviewee: Can I say, before we start, or whenever you want to start, to me, I can't imagine anything tougher or more terrifying than doing stand-up comedy.
Interviewee: So once you do that, I mean, everything else is- Is easy?
Interviewee: I won't say easy.
Interviewee: I'm saying- Not as frightening.
Interviewee: The, to me, standing alone on a stage and hoping a bunch of people laugh at your stuff.
Interviewee: It's, yeah, you get used to it.
Interviewee: But not unlike, I'm sure, your gig.
Interviewee: You know, sometimes it's not going to go exactly right.
Interviewee: It's not always going to, you're not always going to hit it out of the park.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: But I guess what I'm saying is, at a certain point for you, there's got to be just, you've had a lot of reps.
Interviewee: Reps are helpful, man.
Interviewee: Reps, in talking to people and reps in comedy, but it's weird with both for me, because I seem to get just as anxious and- It never goes away.
Interviewee: Not for me, because I don't know if it's part of my preparation, but with stand-up, it's a little less where, like, I know that a part of me lives up there.
Interviewee: That I exist on that stage.
Interviewee: And so I don't freak myself out as much.
Interviewee: But with conversations, I don't generally know what's going to happen, and the anxiety is different.
Interviewee: But yeah, I still keep it fresh by being terrified.
Interviewee: Well, there's Bill Russell.
Interviewee: Yep.
Interviewee: Bill Russell.
Interviewee: Greatest champion of North American sports.
Interviewee: Kept throwing up even after, yeah, right before games.
Interviewer: It's true, right?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Interviewee: I mean, you got to have a little bit of, a few butterflies, otherwise-
Interviewee: Did you, you don't get it?
Interviewee: You know, not just having a conversation.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: You know, if there's a big speech that I've got to give, then there's still a little bit of- A little bit of fear?
Interviewee: A little bit of adrenaline.
Interviewer: Yeah?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Interviewer: A little bit of like, all right, let me make sure that, you know, I got- Yeah.
Interviewer: You're ready to go?
Interviewer: You're focused?
Interviewer: I'm focused.
Interviewer: Lit up?
Interviewer: I'm- I'm pumped up.
Interviewee: Are we, are we just gonna dive in here?
Interviewee: I think we're already doing it.
Interviewee: We're already doing it?
Interviewee: I do want to ask you-
Interviewee: Let's go.
Interviewee: I got a weird question I want to ask you and I decided to start with this as opposed to end with it.
Interviewee: All right.
Interviewee: It's kind of business.
Interviewee: But it's important for me.
Interviewee: It's important for the show.
Interviewee: I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you to, for your signature on something.
Interviewee: Absolutely.
Interviewee: What do we got?
Interviewee: I'll tell you.
Interviewee: Is it a commutation?
Interviewee: I can't do that anymore.
Interviewee: No.
Interviewee: No, this is, I created this pseudo-legal document to honor- This is our last episode.
Interviewee: And this is, this is something I wrote and it's, it's honest, but I wanted to witness and you're here.
Interviewee: So to all concerned, this is dated 10, 13, 25, the date of the last show.
Interviewee: I, Mark Maron, hereby formally release Brendan McDonald from the professional responsibility of listening to me talk from now and in perpetuity.
Interviewee: Brendan has listened to me talk no less than 10,000 hours over the last 22 years, often several hours in one sitting.
Interviewee: That's a lot.
Interviewee: Even more than I've listened to myself talk.
Interviewee: Brendan is free to talk to me socially, but that is entirely up to him.
Interviewee: If, if he chooses, if he chooses to do so, I will be delighted and promise not to abuse the privilege.
Interviewee: It has been a life changing ride on my yammering and I am forever grateful to Brendan for keeping me at my best.
Interviewee: I am, I'm more than happy.
Interviewee: I'm going to sign it.
Interviewee: To you sign it.
Interviewee: I will witness it.
Interviewee: And, uh, this is kind of a commutation.
Interviewee: I mean, I'm essentially, uh, Brendan is released.
Interviewee: Least.
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewee: It's a, it's a big day.
Interviewee: From, uh, from me.
Interviewee: From you.
Interviewee: You know, I have a sense that, uh, he kind of liked hanging out with you.
Interviewer: It was a, it's been a hell of a partnership.
Interviewer: I mean, it may be a little Stockholm syndrome.
Interviewer: No, no, he, he won't let that happen.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Interviewee: I'm completely aware that I have not had that impact on his brain.
Interviewee: Cause if I did, we'd both be in trouble.
Interviewee: He's like the better half of, uh, he's protected me.
Interviewee: You know, I'll say shit and it, and it'll go on.
Interviewee: Uh, I'll record stuff.
Interviewee: And in the back of my head, I'll think like, Brendan is not gonna, he's not gonna leave that in.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Well, you gotta, you gotta have a, he's like your super ego.
Interviewee: That's exactly right.
Interviewee: And he's a functioning part of my memory.
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewee: Like, I don't remember, like, obviously I remember our conversation, but there's been 1600 and more, almost 1700 conversations.
Interviewee: That's a lot.
Interviewee: So tell me how you're feeling.
Interviewee: Look, first of all, congratulations.
Interviewee: Second of all, I'm honored to be on your last show.
Interviewee: How are you feeling about this whole thing?
Interviewee: Uh, transition, uh, moving on from this thing that has been, uh, one of the defining, uh, parts of your career in your life.
Interviewee: 16 years.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: I mean, well, I mean, I, I, maybe you could help me.
Interviewee: I feel okay.
Interviewee: I feel like I'm, I'm sort of ready for the break, but, uh, but there is sort of a fear there of, uh, you know, what do we, what do I do now?
Interviewee: I mean, I'm busy, but not unlike your job.
Interviewee: I'm going to compare my job to the president's, you know, is that I think it's pretty similar.
Interviewee: Thank you.
Interviewee: I've got a lot of people who over the last 16 years have grown to rely on me.
Interviewee: Yes.
Interviewee: And you've got a lot of fans just around.
Interviewee: Oh yeah.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: As in here.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: The, uh, but like, you know, they, they need something.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: They, that there is a, uh, a feeling of like, how am I going to feel, you know, less alone?
Interviewee: How am I going to deal with my mental this or that?
Interviewee: And, and, and how am I going to find, you know, a way to exist in the world that we're living in?
Interviewee: I mean, I'm not offering them solutions, but I am commiserating and it's comforting.
Interviewee: They trust you.
Interviewee: And, and, and they feel as if what you're going through and what they're going through occupies a similar space.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: And so they don't feel like they're traveling this journey that can be frightening alone sometimes.
Interviewee: That's right.
Interviewee: And, and yeah, there's a power in the human voice that you, you grow attached to.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: So when you left, what did you do for your mental health with the weight?
Interviewee: Well, look, how old are you now?
Interviewee: I'm 62.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: So, uh, you, you've still got a couple of chapters left and my, my theory was, uh, somebody gave me advice right before I was leaving office.
Interviewee: Uh, and it was, don't rush into what the next thing is.
Interviewee: Take a beat.
Interviewee: Uh huh.
Interviewee: And take some satisfaction looking backwards and saying, huh, you know what?
Interviewee: Didn't get everything done that I wanted.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Wasn't always exactly how I planned it, but there's a body of work there that I'm proud of.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: You know, pat yourself on the back for a second, just be a little brain dead for a while.
Interviewee: Uh, you know, I, I've, uh, read a bunch of books that had been stacked up by, I had a big, uh, deficit with my wife and had to kind of work my way out of.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Uh, so we went on a lot of trips and hung out and, and, you know, just had nice dinners and, and slept in.
Interviewee: Um, and then I think, you know, what, what this is an opportunity for, for you, it was an opportunity for me was figuring out, all right, um, what's my next highest and best use?
Interviewee: You know, what's my, what, what's, what's a new purpose.
Interviewee: That, uh, scratches that itch.
Interviewee: And it, it may not come to you right away.
Interviewee: The podcast was kind of a random thing, right?
Interviewee: You said, oh, let's try this out.
Interviewee: And, and, and, and you didn't know it was going to go for 16 years.
Interviewee: I assume when you did the first show.
Interviewee: No, we didn't know anything.
Interviewee: You're trying to figure it out.
Interviewee: And, and, and, and, but, but you probably have an inkling of, you know, what you just described about people trusting you, you connecting partly because you're willing to be vulnerable in front of people and kind of let them know, uh, you know, what's going on inside your gut.
Interviewee: Um, there's a power to that.
Interviewee: What, what's another way of channeling it, right?
Interviewee: That, that may be different than you playing a character in a movie or, you know, you, or even you doing standup, there's, there's something more raw, honest, exposed about what you do when you're just having a conversation and connecting with people.
Interviewee: And so the question is, well, is there another way for me to catch that?
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: You know, but you don't have to rush into it.
Interviewee: I guess my main thing would be, you know, take your time.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Unless, unless you really got some bills to pay.
Interviewee: No, no, I'm okay.
Interviewee: But like, it feels like the, like I remember when, uh, you left and the, you know, there is this sort of a, a vacuum and, and in terms of like my, obviously my responsibility to, to my audience is, is different, but how do you sort of, you know, did, did you feel the weight of that responsibility?
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: I mean, what, what was unusual for me was obviously a lot of, uh, what I represented.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: A lot of what Michelle and I had tried to project the values are thinking about America.
Interviewee: Uh huh.
Interviewee: Um, you know, my successor seemed to represent the opposite.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Not seemed, did.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And so I think there was a lot of anger loss, a lot of sadness.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Uh, some fear, uh, among a big chunk of the country.
Interviewee: And I, and you know, one of the problems with, uh, the American political system is although we have political parties, we don't have a parliamentary system.
Interviewee: So, so basically the president, in my case, uh, Democrat, I leave office and there's no obvious person who's now the shadow prime minister, the leader of the party for the Democrats.
Interviewee: And so there, there were a lot of terrific people who were doing good work, but, uh, you know, we have this weird situation where you don't have a designated person who's.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Speaking on behalf of the whole party.
Interviewee: So, um, I actually found myself drawn back in to, uh, uh, day to day politics or commentary more than I had wanted to be.
Interviewee: After the second term.
Interviewee: After the, yeah.
Interviewee: Uh, in 2017, 2018.
Interviewee: Um, and I thought I was going to be able to remove myself more from being out there in public and was going to be able to concentrate on what I really wanted to do, which was, uh, coach the next generation of leadership.
Interviewee: Um, yeah, move from player to coach essentially.
Interviewee: And I, I kept on being, uh, asked to, to comment on news of the day and look at this outrage and yeah, why aren't you out there more and right.
Interviewee: And, and, and that kind of thing.
Interviewee: Um, and look, that's flattering.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And, uh, you know, it's, it's an indication that you made a connection with people.
Interviewee: Sure.
Interviewee: Um, but I, I, I tried to be a little bit disciplined about recognizing that I'd, I'd moved on to a new phase where I, I did not have formal power.
Interviewee: Mm-hmm.
Interviewee: I have some hopefully moral suasion, some, some credibility.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: But I didn't have formal power.
Interviewee: And, and, and so more than anything for the longterm, what I could do that would be most helpful would be to start promoting up, uh, lifting up, shining a spotlight on those, you know, that next generation of, of leadership and talent, uh, new voices.
Interviewee: Because part of what also happens is, you know, um, you know, as you get older, Michelle and I joke about this, um, no matter how much you, you want to pretend otherwise, you're, you're starting to get a little out of touch.
Interviewee: You're, you're not completely, you know, plugged into the zeitgeist.
Interviewee: And it happens naturally.
Interviewee: It just happens.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: I mean, look, I, I, I don't, my brain doesn't register TikTok.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Mine either.
Interviewee: The same way that it does my 16 year old niece.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: You got to get a guy to do it for you.
Interviewee: I, it's not just the, the, the, the technology itself.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: It's that I'm not plugged in.
Interviewee: I'm not relating to.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: The cultural, you know, stream in the same way that somebody who who's 20 or 25 or even
Interviewee: 35 is, but that's an interesting point is that, uh, you know, human connection, you know, tick tock and like when you and I did the podcast 2015, the landscape was, was not as glutted, you know, Instagram didn't have the power.
Interviewee: It does tick tock.
Interviewee: I don't even know if it was around.
Interviewee: No, not that I, and you know, there was a way of, of making a real connection.
Interviewee: And it seems like a lot of these platforms now, like tick tock is just an inundation of stuff that like, what a, like, I know when I talk to you and I can feel it in, in, you can hear it, that there's a human connection.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: And it seems like, you know, that's necessary.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: It's I, listen, I've been wrestling with this for a while.
Interviewee: You know, um, people talk about me being the first digital president and that's true.
Interviewee: Obviously the internet existed before me and, but, but you know, I will, when I came into office in 2009, you know, the smartphone was not yet widely around.
Interviewee: Um, and so the smartphone comes out around 2010, Facebook, Twitter, a lot of social media is just taking off.
Interviewee: Um, it seemed optimistic.
Interviewee: It did.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: So, so, you know, there's all this sense of this is human connection.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: My campaign wouldn't work.
Interviewee: I, I joke about the fact that, um, I was an early adapter of all the social media, not because by the way, I was so, uh, smart.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: It was that my campaign was broke enough that I had to rely on a bunch of 20 and 25 year olds volunteering in our office.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And they'd say like, Hey, uh, Senator, um, this is a website.
Interviewee: I said, ah, website.
Interviewee: Great.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Sounds good.
Interviewee: Sounds good.
Interviewee: And say, so you can have pictures and you can have even video on there and see this little box.
Interviewee: Like people can, can click it and, and they can contribute money.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: And I'd be like, really?
Interviewee: That's good.
Interviewee: Well, that's, that seems useful.
Interviewee: And then they'd say, and this one they can like volunteer.
Interviewee: And I'd, I'd be like, well, that's great.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: Let's do that.
Interviewee: And, and, and so I probably, I mean, part of the reason I was elected was we were adapting all these new media, but this dates myself.
Interviewee: I talked to audiences.
Interviewee: I was like, my social media, our social media was my space.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And meetup.
Interviewee: Right now meetup is the one that I always tell people is the most interesting to me.
Interviewee: I don't even know what it is.
Interviewee: I missed it.
Interviewee: So meetup was, you know, it was, it was a social media early, early, early, uh, application.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And you could send basically text over.
Interviewee: So, so let's say there were a bunch of volunteers up in Idaho.
Interviewee: Oh yeah.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And, you know, Idaho is not a big blue state with a lot of delegates.
Interviewee: So we don't have the resources to send a whole staff.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Paid staff up to Idaho, but we have a few volunteers, uh, some people, some supporters, they send us a message saying, Hey, we're Idahoans for Obama.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And, uh, we, we, we love to, to build a, we think, you know, you can win this, uh, state.
Interviewee: And so we go, all right.
Interviewee: So we'd send a bunch of information through meetup and we'd give them the app.
Interviewee: And basically what the app would do is you could send out, here's Obama's positions on things.
Interviewee: Here's, you know, dates of debates and this and that.
Interviewee: But the main thing it did, hence the name was it would help these volunteers organize themselves to meet up.
Interviewee: In person.
Interviewee: In person.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: In a church basement, in a bar.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: In a VFW hall, whatever.
Interviewee: And what I always tell people was wonderful about this rudimentary app was they'd show up when they actually met in person.
Interviewee: And maybe they were assuming that they were all fought the same way and.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Were, were, had the same positions on everything.
Interviewee: And they'd show up at some, you know, Obama volunteer meeting and you'd have a, you know, what looked like a ex army sergeant with a crew cut.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And you'd have a black, young black woman with a nose ring.
Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewee: And you'd have a suburban mom, you know, with some kids.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: And it turned out that by virtue of meeting in person, you kind of realize that people are a little more complicated.
Interviewee: Sure.
Interviewee: Maybe they don't agree with me on everything.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: Maybe they're, and that's a good thing, right?
Interviewee: Sure.
Interviewee: So it creates this friction and this interest and, and it, it, it forced people to kind of say, all right, well, you know, it turns out that I don't have to agree with everything to, to work with somebody.
Interviewee: Right.
Interviewee: And then out of, out of those meetings, they'd have to go out and start knocking on doors.
Interviewee: And that's the ultimate meetup.
Interviewee: Cause now you're, you're, you're, you're forcing yourself to talk to strangers who definitely don't agree with you on stuff.
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