Harry Styles knows when to say no — and when to say yes

Harry, thanks for being here. How are you?

I'm great. Thank you so much.

Thanks for coming.

That's my pleasure. Congratulations on the record.

I really love listening to you.

Thank you very much. Congratulations on the baby.

Thank you very much. My own record.

Yeah.

Of my time on earth.

So my understanding about the record is that it came from a place where you had sort of closed yourself off from life and a lot of experiences for a while.

And you wanted to open yourself up to it.

Help me understand that a bit better.

Like what were you, what was going on that you were closing yourself off?

Generally like my experience of kind of being like in the public domain is something that like obviously you learn a lot about kind of what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.

And I think, I think when I started in the, in the band, we were kind of encouraged to like give a lot of ourselves away, you know, to kind of like let people get to know you.

And, and, and, and I think kind of finishing that and then, and then when I started working on my own stuff, I was kind of, I felt like there were parts of that where I was kind of just kind of learning my own, what I was comfortable with and trying to like have kind of parts of my like personal life be more private.

And, and, and, and, and, and, and kind of juggling a little bit with that.

And, and I think the last time that we were touring and stuff, I think touring is quite an isolating experience.

And on top of that, when we started touring, it was 2021, so it was kind of, it was kind of like still depths of, you know, pandemic, we were like one of the first tours to go back out.

So I think that tour started in that way where it was like, I was really bubbled up even kind of within the tour and then staying on that tour, you know, we put an album out and it ended up being like two and a half years type time.

It's just a long time to be in like a bubble where you're not really spending that much time, like in the world around you other than shows and hotels and stuff.

And when I finished, I kind of went off and was spending a lot of time in Italy and was kind of like having this quiet time.

And I was just feeling a lot of my life as I was kind of like craving, like quiet and kind of like private spaces.

I was just feeling myself kind of like shut out a lot of the world, I think.

And I think the last couple of years for me was about, you know, there's a lot of things that I think I got used to saying no to, like invites from friends and like maybe a weekend trip or like a birthday party or something.

Kind of like I don't want to be, I could use the time by myself or I could use a little bit of recharge time.

Yeah, I think I just got used to, you know, if I have a week at home, I don't want to go somewhere else for three days.

I just want to stay home, you know.

And I think when I got to Italy and was kind of out in this quiet place, I felt like, okay, if I'm going to spend all this time out here and I'm going to keep saying no to everything, I'm just going to like shut myself off from the world.

You'd be a hermit.

Yeah, and while parts of that sound appealing, I also like, I love people and I love like being in the world, you know.

So it was kind of, I think for me, like there's been both the thing of like learning to set boundaries and stuff is a large part of that has also been learning when not to set boundaries and when to open up.

So like, I think having, you know, like healthy boundaries doesn't mean just saying no to everything.

I think it's being intentional with the things that you don't do and being intentional with the things that you do do.

So, you know, there's a message in the album sleeve where I said like thanks to all the people who helped me know when to say no and when to say yes.

And I think both of those have like greatly enriched my life.

I appreciate everything you're saying there that when you were in the band, I didn't realize this until I was doing a load of research for this because I didn't know the band that well when you were on the go.

So you did give a lot of yourself, you guys were on Twitter, you were like, you were talking, you were putting a lot out there.

Yeah.

And then so you're trying to renegotiate how that is going to go now that you're a solo artist and also just as a human in the world.

Right?

Then you're, you have a lot of exposure around you, you're on the road a lot, there's a lot asked of you and it's also just exhausting to be on the road and it's exhausting to do what you do and you start to find yourself Salingering a little bit, like hiding away a little bit, boni-vering it a little bit, hiding away, you know.

Then you start to realize, well, I need to figure out what to say yes to, I need to go out a little bit more.

What I'm missing is the inflection point.

Is there a moment, like, because when I was hearing you talk about it in the interviews you've done so far, it sounds like something went down or there was some sort of revelation caused by anything where you were like, I got to go out more?

I was supposed to spend New Year's with some friends and I landed in Italy and was like, felt really unwell.

So I just, like, went home and I woke up and I had this, like, kind of beautiful New Year's, like, by myself.

But I think in spending a lot of time by myself, which I hadn't really done, I was also learning, like, I was, I was feeling the most alone I'd felt in a really long time.

But in the most, like, beautiful way, like, I didn't feel lonely at all.

And I think there's times, like, touring that can feel lonely.

Like, obviously it's amazing and unbelievable.

Sure, yeah.

But I think that it's a confusing feeling to feel like I'm surrounded by so many people all the time, but there's a sense of loneliness in it.

And it was really calming to feel like I'm alone in a way that feels like I want to be.

And there's something, like, really powerful in that.

And I think when, you know, when I was writing music, it felt like, like, it's only to fulfill myself because I'm doing it in a way that feels so removed from the idea of making an album.

And I'm doing it so far away from what's playing on the radio and what's, like, happening around me that it felt like I think there's times when you're in it where you can feel like I'm in the studio because, you know, that's what comes next.

And I'm doing a tour and then that's what happens after this.

I'll make another record.

And when I finished the last tour at that time, if I'd started making another record right then, I don't know that I would have known why I was doing it or what I wanted to say.

I don't think I had that yet.

So I think to be at home and write music and be writing it and kind of remind myself, like, oh, I'm doing this because this is what I do.

And this is what I love doing rather than I'm doing this because it's time for me to make an album.

And then you start going out and then you're like, okay, now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think having, like, not being afraid to be by myself allowed me to.

Be intentional.

Yeah.

Be intentional about the things that I then wanted to do, you know.

And I think I'd had a couple of things that had led to these other positive experiences that were, like, doors that were opening for me through people I'd met or, like, going to parties with people that I usually would have said no to.

Where I was, like, there's a lot of, like, momentum in this that I could follow.

And there was some element of, like, you know, being really happy in so many ways with, like, where I was.

And I feel like I'm in a good place and I'm feeling good about being by myself.

But also the idea of, like, as I think everyone does, I was like, I don't want to be in places in my life where I kind of dream about getting to this place and being in this place and then spend my time sitting in that place, looking at everyone else on Instagram, living their lives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hard on you, too, boy.

It's hard on you, too, because you get noticed, right?

Like, it's hard on you, too, because it's hard.

And what I try to say to people when I talk about having this kind of conversation is that gratitude is assumed.

Like, gratitude is assumed.

And it's hard for you to go out and go out to a bar or go out to a club, I would think, you know.

You can sit at home and go, like, it's hard for me to do these things.

It's hard for me to be this.

People are going to be looking at me, taking pictures, all that.

But you can also go that, like, it being hard, and maybe not hard, but at times.

Challenging.

Uncomfortable or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can be a reason why you don't do them.

Yeah.

Or you can choose for that to not be a reason.

You can do them anyway, right?

Yeah.

And I think when you shut out a lot of the things that are assumed can be negative, you also just un...

consciously shut out a ton of positive things, you know.

So if you go, it can be hard to go to a bar and, like, hang out with friends because there's maybe people who would act this way.

Like...

This is for you.

This is for you.

I don't want to shut myself off from this world.

Like, I love people.

You know, I love being social sometimes.

Not always, but sometimes.

And I think accepting that you shut yourself off from both when you shut yourself off from the negative is just...

allow some space that, like, both things are okay, you know.

And I want to allow the positivity into my life, you know, so...

Good on you.

That's good, Brian, you know.

A lot of people don't.

A lot of people would stay home and, you know, wear the shoeboxes on the feet and, you know, never go out again, right?

I hear it in the music, too.

Like, I hear...

I assume you're going to clubs.

I assume you were going out dancing and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Bit of that?

Yeah.

I can hear that in the music.

I can hear an effort towards collective transcendence is the phrase that I would use from what I'm hearing on the record.

Great phrase.

Thank you.

I might use that.

It took 10% of net, though, please.

My guess is that in some dance clubs or at some shows...

I know you went to see LCD sound system a bunch of times.

I'm guessing you went to see Jamie Ex-Ax a couple of times because he's opening the gigs for you.

I'm guessing when you were in Berlin, you went to clubs, the big, wicked Berlin clubs there.

I'm guessing you had that experience of having that sort of transcendence of sort of losing yourself to a pulse and to a bass note, to a drum, to the people around you.

Yeah.

And that's what you were sort of reaching towards in this music.

Am I onto something?

Yeah.

I think the thing that is really beautiful about a lot of those experiences is that, you know, especially with someone like Jamie or, you know, like some of the DJs that are playing in like some of those clubs.

Yeah.

Is I think while there's some similarity, I think the experience that they're, like their job is so in service of a communal experience.

That I think there's, it's what?

Very honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's, there's like probably a lot less ego than there is for, you know, when I think about me being on stage where it's kind of like, I'm here and, you know.

It's the hairstyle show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think I really love how for the audience that stuff is, you know.

And I think it's like a real gift that they give to people to have, it kind of like recalibrated my understanding of what someone in the audience deserves, I think.

Deserves.

Deserves.

Yeah.

Because they show up being so generous with their emotions and their energy.

And I think to kind of recalibrate the idea of like, it's not, it's not really about me, you know, and being able to be a true audience member and have my own experience and the person supplying the soundtrack to that is kind of giving me this gift.

But, you know, clubs like that, it's a lot of people having a collective experience, but it's a lot of people having their own individual experience.

And I think allowing for that is a lot about what this record feels like to me is that I don't want it to be like, I want you to hear all about what I've been experiencing.

You know, I want, my hope is that it feels like I'm telling you that experiencing these things are amazing.

Yeah.

You should experience those also.

I'll tell you where I hear that is on, by the way, there's an irony in all of this that I'm just waiting for people on the internet who are going to point this out.

Yeah.

I have never been to a club in my entire life.

Okay.

And I got, I said that to you, was it, does it Dua Lipa?

I said it to Dua Lipa.

And she went, what?

So I'll put that out there that I have not, I have not gone to like a club club.

It's fun.

Is it all right?

Like, I'm a pubby, I play sessions in traditional music and sing songs and stuff like that.

But like, it's fun, isn't it?

Yeah, it's fun.

I think there's a, I think there's an element that, you know, feels, you know, it's fun to, you know, you can go out and you can get loose or whatever your tipple is and do your thing.

Yeah.

But I think underneath that, like the DNA of these places is so much about this community feel of like safety and like loving each other and like being a safe space for people to be whoever they want and just have an experience that belongs to them, you know?

And they can do that in a place that is where they're just surrounded by love and everyone is there for the same thing.

And I think that's really, there is an element of that that is like very like spiritual, you know?

Because I think for me, like when I was watching like LCD, for example, I'm kind of watching how James is on stage and feeling like, oh, he's so immersed in what he's doing.

Watching that is like the joy that I get from it.

It's like watching someone who's so enjoying himself.

And I think it was a big thing to, for me to feel like that's how I want to feel on stage and how I feel in the middle of the dance floor is how I want to feel on stage.

Feeling like that immersed in it.

So I heard that on the Are You Listening Yet song.

Yeah.

Which I think is like the thesis of the record in a lot of ways.

Because I heard so much about like, I'm going to paraphrase your lyrics to you, which is always so complimentary and not risky at all for me.

I can't.

Yeah, it's a very normal thing to do.

Yeah.

Like, you're, these things are all great.

Therapy's wonderful.

It's good for you.

You know what I mean?

Looking after yourself is good.

You got mantras.

You got all these things you're going to do.

You're looking after your head.

You're looking after your heart.

But when you are in a set of like collective transcendence, when you are able to completely lose yourself.

And in this case, it sounds like, you know, it was for you at a dance club and you're able to, you know, you're able to lose that.

You're not just saying that like, I got something out of this.

You're saying to people in some ways, like, this is excellent for you.

There's something beautiful, spiritually nurturing for you.

The line is, it's in the chorus.

Like, if it's not your head or your heart, but it's, is that what it is?

It's between your head and heart and somewhere else.

And somewhere else.

Yeah.

Somewhere else meaning like probably the spirit or probably like that.

When did you first have that experience?

When do you remember first having the experience of being in a club like that and feeling like I lost myself?

Because your life was manicured, man.

Your life was controlled.

Yeah.

And your life was also a little, with a lot of solitude in it.

When do you first remember having that experience of completely losing yourself from that?

I've always like, you know, I've liked dancing and liked going out in that way.

I think I'd been to a couple of like house parties and stuff a couple of years ago and was having like a bit more of, having a few more experiences with like electronic music.

And like really starting to enjoy that a lot more.

And I really liked the like melodic aspect and the kind of meditative aspect of it.

And I think I'd been in a couple of situations where, you know, being on like a dance floor and being a free version of myself.

And also being aware of like people around with like phones and cameras and stuff and just not quite like letting loose and letting go as much as I think I felt like was available to me in a way.

And I think I went to Berlin last, I started going to Berlin like beginning of last year.

And I was in a, in a dance club and had this experience where like it's so baked in as part of Berlin culture that like everyone deserves to go dancing and be free.

And, you know, if you're a doctor, you should be able to let go.

And if you're a politician, you should be allowed to let go.

And I like had my hands up and I was kind of just like breathing and I closed my eyes and I remember the feeling.

Like, oh, I'm no longer like scanning the room to see if anyone's like, you know, filming or anything, just because no one needs to see that.

And I just felt like, oh, I'm just on my own right now.

And I feel so free.

And I hadn't felt that free.

And it was really emotional.

I just remember being there in this kind of like trance state in the music and like feeling tears roll down my face and feel like, wow, this is so.

It's like such an amazing thing to like stand in the middle of like strangers and have this like beautiful experience and look around and see all these other people having their own version of that experience.

And it just became something that was like, I felt how much that affected me for like weeks after that.

Like I felt this real afterglow of like just a really big shift in like, oh, I, I, there's something there for me, you know, that I, that I want to experience again.

And there's, there's something in that state of freedom that I think is a really interesting thing to explore for me, like as a musician as well.

Beautiful.

And you want to give that to the audience.

You want to give that to the audience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what you have.

Yeah.

I think a lot of, a lot of the kind of like diary entry kind of anecdotes of, of the last few records, it's, it's very much kind of,

like, if it's a rollercoaster, it's like, I'm sat in the front seat and the audience is sat behind me and I'm like, come with me and I'll show you how this rollercoaster feels.

Yeah.

You know, like watch me have a great time.

Let me entertain you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think with this record, what I hope and what I hear when I listen to it is like, I want the listener to be in the front seat actually.

And I'm in the seat behind you and I'm like, you know, maybe I have my hand on your shoulder.

I'm like with you.

Yeah.

But it's about you having your own experiences.

It's not about, it's not really about me.

It's not really about what I'm doing.

It's not really about what clubs I'm going to.

It's not really about who I'm hanging out with or where I'm going.

It's like, it's me kind of saying, experiencing life in this way is amazing and I encourage you to also go do that for yourself.

Beautiful.

I think.

I have a question about one of the other songs on the record.

Yeah.

It's a shorter song and I'm a bit anxious or a bit sensitive about asking you about it.

So I figure what I do is I just put the boat in the water and sort of let you row it wherever you want.

Yeah.

Can you talk to me about Paint by Numbers?

Yeah.

It's like one of my favorite things.

It comes out of nowhere on the record.

Yeah, it does.

So originally Paint by Numbers was like track one of the album.

And at that time, the album was very different.

It was like sonically sounding very different.

And it was very, it was like very introspective.

I think I was really starting to feel like, you know, I don't know, you know, I think I loved the idea of opening the album with, oh, what a gift it is to be noticed, but it's nothing to do with me.

I just loved, I was like so dedicated to that being the opening line.

Oh, what a gift it is to be noticed, but it's nothing to do with me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I felt so like powerful in a lot of ways to be able to acknowledge that it's not really about me.

What's the song about?

Like I was trying to figure out who you were.

Yeah.

Of course, you can imagine my, I heard the record once.

And I'm knowing everything that you've gone through over the past couple of years.

And I'm going, I'm searching for connections here.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think so the, I mean, the opening, the whole opening of the song is, oh, what a gift it is to be noticed, but it's nothing to do with me.

You've got to wonder if there's a reason to believe it's a lifetime of learning to paint by numbers and watching the colors run.

And I think.

And what's the line about American children?

Like, I got it here.

Hold on, I got it.

Hold in the way of the American children whose hearts you break.

What's the, what's this, where does this, where does this song come from now?

I'd had this relationship with like my own kind of like image.

And I think the idea of me that I think other people have and had, I think where, I think I had like an expectation of myself to live up to being this kind of projected version of me.

Good and, and, and, and happy and, and perfect.

Yeah, and just like perfect.

And it was supposed to be this thing, you know?

And, and I think that can be part of what is difficult when you know yourself, you know?

You're like, well, the version that maybe these people think I am, you know, there's parts of that, that I think I am.

And then there's also like parts of, like anyone has parts of you that you dislike about yourself.

And I think kind of learning to like accept that and I think being in the struggle of there's this perfect version that you're trying to fulfill.

And by doing that, I think feeling like you, it's really easy to fall short when the version that you're, the standard you're holding yourself to is this like perfect person.

It's impossible.

Yeah, you were holding yourself up to a standard of flawlessness.

Yeah.

And I think, I think with, you know, especially with like social media and everything.

Yeah.

You're seeing this like version of yourself that other people see reflected back at you all the time.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think acknowledging that that can influence your thoughts about yourself as it does with everyone.

It's not just a me thing.

It's kind of like acknowledging that it's not always going to be perfect.

You know, it's a lifetime of learning to paint by numbers.

I'm watching the colors run.

Like you can, you can try and paint inside the lines, but it's like life just doesn't work that way, you know?

And the next line of American children whose hearts you break and then it says, you know, I'm not even 33, a little self-compassion and a life within your means.

It's like, I'm still figuring a bunch of stuff out.

Yeah.

And it's okay to like have a little self-compassion around making mistakes.

You know, like everyone does that.

And I think for a long time I struggled to admit that, like I struggled to admit when I'd made a mistake because it was like the reward system when you fulfill the expectation that people have of you is so loud and so shiny, you know, that it gets hard to differentiate when that's a good thing, when that becomes like an unhealthy thing.

That's just a natural way of living your life, is it?

So I think for me, you know, a large part of the last couple of years has just been about like honestly like learning to like myself like away from having so much of my value baked into like whether other people are enjoying me or not.

And I think like learning like the fears and like feelings aren't facts and like, you know, you can have a feeling about yourself and taking the time to be able to like see what that is and see where that comes from.

And the knowledge of where that comes from gives you a lot of power in terms of, you know, if you don't, if you don't feel great about yourself and someone else tells you that they think you're terrible.

It's like the claw is in and they are like, it is ripping you.

Whereas if you have like a somewhat solid sense of self and someone says that you're awful, you're like, okay, I'm sorry you felt that way though, man.

Like you're like, you know, you're like a very famous, well-loved person.

It is meaningful to me that you felt that way.

You know what I mean?

I mean, I think, I think it's like, it's like such a huge part of the human experience.

I think it's not, I'm not trying to like complain about it.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

I know, I know, I know.

I think it's like moving that, you know what I mean?

That no one's exempt from it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think it's like everyone's like raw pieces are the same, you know, and, and in different ways.

But we're all like vulnerable beings, you know, and I think taking the time away from like working and the loud like distractions of things that are perfect kind of dopamine hits of like, you know, there's maybe this piece of my sense of self that would maybe at some point be healthy for me to look at.

And then it's like, you did this thing and everyone thinks it's great.

And you're like, great.

You won album of the year.

You won album of the year, you know, pretty good.

Thanks.

You know.

So I think just, I think like having time to like sit at home and get, you know, be bored and like being bored is part of it.

Like it's all okay.

Like being bored isn't a bad thing.

Being this thing isn't a bad thing.

Being afraid isn't a bad thing.

I think just having time to like really look at the experiences I was having and really look at the emotions I was feeling and kind of be able to lean into them instead of be afraid of them has been something that kind of allows me, I think, to be here ready to put music out feeling like, oh, I'm in such a healthier place than I was last time I did this, that, um, it just makes me like excited.

I wanted to ask you about the Pope.

Yeah.

So I liked the story you told that you went, you were getting a hair, you were getting a haircut.

Yeah.

And your barber says, uh, happy as papum.

Happy as papum, yeah.

That we have a new Pope.

And you, you run out into, I guess St. Peter's Square is what it's called.

Yeah.

Into the Vatican.

And there's, I let him finish and then, and then I went.

And then there's, you let him finish, you got the, he finished the haircut?

I let him finish, yeah.

Okay, good.

And then you said, okay, now you can go look at the Pope.

So you went out and you were there with your hat.

I think the, the techno is my boyfriend hat and your sunglasses on, uh, watching the Pope.

And I, I get that that's a funny, great story and I, I enjoyed it, but I want to know if you felt anything in that moment.

Like, I want to know when you're watching, I don't know, I don't know your spiritual background and it's actually none of my business, but, but.

No, it's not.

But I got some guesses.

Yeah.

So you raise one finger if I get it right.

But I want to know, regardless of your spiritual background and what your spirituality is now, I imagine seeing the devotion and adoration from the people around you and watching that, watching the Pope come out.

I wonder if you felt, what you felt in those moments.

I think what I found really interesting was like, it's the same, in all the ways that it's different, there are similarities with like, live music and stuff, you know?

Like, I get that they're obviously incredibly different.

Yeah.

This is not John Lennon.

No.

Yeah.

No, I understand.

I'll say it for you.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is not that.

Yeah.

I understand.

Yeah.

It's like buzzwords.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I heard it too.

But it's this something about people gathering on behalf of something that is so much greater than what we can understand in some ways.

Bless you.

Bless you.

It's okay.

Bless you.

Speaking of the Pope.

Bless you.

Yeah.

That I think is like, there is this inherent like vulnerability in people where we are all coming together and there's like this admittance of like, we're gathering to something that

we can't see and we can't feel all the time and isn't necessarily as tangible as the things that are always around us that feels like there is vulnerability in like admitting that we all believe in something, whether that is music, whether that is religion, like whatever that is.

And I think especially in a time where, you know, the kind of belief in the eternal and religion in that way is lesser than than it was in like previous times.

I think having, we've lost like a lot of like ritual, I think in that, in that shift.

And I think having these moments of like rituals of like coming together and believing in something and it doesn't have to be God.

It doesn't have to be X.

It can be music or the environment or nature or nature or whatever it is.

There's something in like these times in which we're so isolated from each other and so divided.

For me, it was like just very, like a beautiful thing to just see people come together.

You recognize that in the moment.

Yeah, I think like I got more from like looking at the crowds of strangers together than I, like I couldn't see the Pope, you know, it's like he was behind the thing.

It was not like you had bad seats for the Pope, I had bad seats, I had really bad seats.

I was behind like a tree and it's the human piece of it that I think is like the way that we gather that I think is the most beautiful thing.

And I think in, you know, the threads between gathering in that way and gathering at like a show or a concert, it's like whatever side of it we're on, we're all kind of there for the same thing.

You know, I think like the Pope is there for the same thing as the people who have come there for, I think as the artist on stage, I'm there for the same thing that the people in the audience have come there for.

Collective transcendence.

We're all trying to get to another sort of level, away from our heads and our hearts.

Yeah.

Away from, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

No.

I'm just waiting for the YouTube comments.

He was in the middle of something really good.

That's my...

I was really close to being profane.

Yeah, yeah, I saved you from her.

That's the things we're looking for.

And I think you're right.

I think when music is, when I've had experiences of music being transcendent, when I've had experiences of playing music with other people or singing with other people, it was actually in the north of London, north of England one time, in Sheffield, I went to a...

And that's about two hours away from you in Cheshire.

You ever go to Sheffield?

You ever been up there?

I did, yeah.

My sister went to school in Sheffield.

I went up there and I went to like a singing session up there.

And it was all, you know, people from the community singing, like all in harmonies and like soul folk songs, stuff like that.

And I remember feeling like pure transcendence in my world.

I wasn't at a club, but still, it was pure transcendence.

And I understand what you mean.

It can feel...

It feels like the same thing we're looking for from God.

It does feel like the same thing we're looking for from anything we try to lose ourselves in.

What's really interesting and a lot of what I found with this record is like having, you know, there's so many of those group experiences you can have.

And then there's versions of that that I think you can have like by yourself.

I think there's sometimes like in like songwriting, you can...

There's this moment where there's a song that feels like it like writes itself, you know.

And then you like read it back or listen to it back.

And it's like, you know, there's been times more so on this record than ever where I've kind of like read something as I've written it.

And I've like learned something about myself, like as I'm reading it back.

What's the one?

What's one on the record that you've read?

Um, if all of the rest of the record was questioning to me, like Carla's song was the answer to the whole thing.

And which is why it kind of felt like the perfect end.

What was the question?

What was the answer?

So I think, I think a large part of the kind of questioning that like has naturally always come up for me when I've been touring and stuff is, you know, like what am I doing?

And what am I kind of giving in a world where I'm kind of like making music and then I tour it and then I make another album and then I tour that.

I think because the, because the kind of reward system feels so loud, it feels like, well, I'm getting so much.

So what am I like giving, you know?

And I think in those moments, I think, um, that's why I think when I finished the last tour, I felt like I don't know why, like, I can't make another record until I know why I'm making it.

So I think while a lot of the rest of the stuff on the album is about me, um, searching for something of like, what, what is it that I'm looking for?

And like, what is it that I really want in my life and all these things?

I think the, the story around Carla's song was, uh, a friend of mine, um, her girlfriend, um, kind of revealed to, we were, we were waiting to go to this party together and she'd kind of said like, Oh, I just discovered, do you know this guy, Paul Simon?

And we were all like, yes.

Yeah.

I've heard of him.

And, um, yeah, so she'd heard like 50 ways to live your lover on like a playlist that she'd been listening to and she was listening to it over and over again.

And I had, um, I kind of had this like light bulb moment of just like, Oh, you don't know like Simon and Garfunkel.

I like grew up on Simon and Garfunkel so much.

I think it's like why I love harmony so much and why the use of harmony for me, like informs the melody so much.

We've got a Cecilia in the pub you grew up in too.

I remember.

Yeah.

Um, and so, so I was like, can I play you something?

So I kind of sat with her and I played her bridge over troubled water and she'd never heard it before.

Oh man.

And, and I kind of watched her listen to it.

And it was like watching someone like discover magic.

You know, it was like just watching someone see in Technicolor for the first time.

And I felt like I listened to the song for the first time again.

And I think I had this moment of like everyone who works like in or around music, I think it gets really easy to forget.

But all of us have this moment with a song where you hear something that you know is going to be in your life forever.

And that is why we want to work in music or like why anyone who works at a record label or a publishing company, they had a moment with a song where they were like, this song is going to be in my life forever.

I've never heard anything like this.

So what was the answer?

What was the answer you got from that?

Well, I think the answer was that of all of my questioning of like, why and why do I do this?

It's like this feeling of someone hearing something is like reason enough to like be alive.

Like that moment is so special.

And I think it was the idea, you know, the chorus is, you know, it's all waiting there for you and finishes with me saying, you know, I know what you like, you can hear at any time.

And I think the idea of me making music being like this investment towards this thing that is so much greater than me in the way that people will be listening to Bridge Over Troubled Water in however many years time, like way past any of us are.

Alive, you know, and then kind of that is the gift of them kind of giving that song to people to hear.

I think it's like somewhat comforting.

It's comforting to me, but I hope it's also comforting to the audience that like it's not really about me, you know, and if I go away for a while, if I go away for two years, if I go away for 10 years, if whatever it is, it's not really about me.

Like it's always about the music and it's always been about the music.

And I think that to me has been like the greatest gift of what I've got out of this record is kind of rediscovering the rediscovering that because I think it can realizing that it's not really about you can be absolutely terrifying.

Or if you let it, it can be incredibly liberating to just go, it's just not, you know.

Yeah.

And I can understand how you needed to get there too.

Yeah.

I can understand that it was about you.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

You know, and I'm not being disrespectful like, you know, like it was.

No, I think you're just, it's a world where there's a lot of people telling you that it is about you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think having the chance to reconnect with the fact that it's not is just like was something that I needed and it's something that like is still like giving to me, you know.

You ever heard that live version of Bridge Over Trouble Water?

They debut it at Carnegie Hall?

I think so.

Yeah.

I mean, I had that moment where I was listening.

It's funny you mentioned that song.

So like he says, I think Garfunkel says, this is a new song that we're trying out and it's Bridge Over Trouble Water.

And I had this moment of like, oh my God, everybody in that room is hearing this for the first time right now.

So, yeah, I mean.

You know?

Yeah.

They just felt it.

They didn't know it was an important song.

They didn't know it had the history.

They just got to feel it that way for the first time.

Yeah.

So, I'll end by saying the same thing to you I said the last time I met you because I've been thinking a lot about it listening to this record.

And I don't, well, you know what?

That's a, that's a, that's a negative self-critic voice telling me to go up.

It's like an Irish Catholic-ness trying to tell me to get ahead of what I'm about to say to you.

Yeah.

I think.

It's like giving a present and being like, you'll hate it.

Don't worry.

Yeah, because then I hope that you'll be like, if you don't like it, you can give it.

Yeah, it's exactly like that.

But I think you have an incredible ability to bring art into spaces that don't always reward it.

To bring art to places, radios and TVs and a lot of different people's phones that the places that, the things that they went over to get would not necessarily be motivated by art always.

And I always, I admire your dedication to that.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

I think you made a great record and I think you should be really proud of it.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for coming in or thanks for having me here.

Thanks for, thanks for coming.

God love you.

Thank you so much.