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Tucker Carlson interviews Russian President Vladimir Putin on the Ukraine conflict, historical context, NATO expansion, and global power dynamics. Putin explains his rationale for the invasion, criticizes Western policy, and discusses potential future scenarios.
Published February 8, 2024
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Vladimir Putin
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Interviewer: On February 22nd, 2022, you addressed your country in a nationwide address, when the conflict in Ukraine started. And you said that you were acting because you had come to the conclusion that the United States, through NATO, might initiate a, quote, surprise attack on our country. And to American ears, that sounds paranoid. Tell us why you believe the United States might strike Russia out of the blue. How did you conclude that?
Vladimir Putin: It's not that America, the United States, was going to launch a surprise strike on Russia. I didn't say that. Are we having a talk show or a serious conversation?
Interviewer: Here's the quote. Thank you. Because your basic education is in history, as far as I understand. Yes. So if you don't mind, I will take only 30 seconds or one minute to give you a short reference to history for giving you a little historical background. Please. Let's look where our relationship with Ukraine started from. Where did Ukraine come from? The Russian state started gathering itself as a centralized statehood, and it is considered to be the year of the establishment of the Russian state, in 862, when the townspeople of Novgorod invited a Varangian prince, Rurik, from Scandinavia to reign. In 1862 Russia celebrated the 1000th anniversary of its statehood, and in Novgorod there is a memorial dedicated to the 1000th anniversary of the country. In 882, Rurik's successor, Prince Oleg, who was actually playing the role of regent at Rurik's younger son, because Rurik had died by that time, came to Kyiv. He ousted two brothers, who apparently had once been members of Rurik's squad. So Russia began to develop with two centers of power, Kyiv and Novgorod. The next very significant date in the history of Russia was 988. This was the baptism of Russia, when Prince Vladimir, the great-grandson of Rurik, baptized Russia and adopted Orthodoxy, or Eastern Christianity. From this time, the centralized Russian state began to strengthen. Why? Because of the single territory, integrated economic ties, one and the same language, and, after the baptism of Russia, the same faith and rule of the prince. The centralized Russian state began to take shape. Back in the Middle Ages, Prince Yaroslav the Wise introduced the order of succession to a throne. But after he passed away, it became complicated for various reasons. The throne was passed not directly from father to eldest son, but from the prince, who had passed away to his brother, then to his sons in different lines. All this led to the fragmentation and the end of Rus as a single state. There was nothing special about it. The same was happening then in Europe. But the fragmented Russian state became an easy prey to the empire created earlier by Genghis Khan. His successors, namely Batuhan, came to Rus, plundered and ruined nearly all the cities. The southern part, including Kiev, by the way, and some other cities, simply lost independence, while northern cities preserved some of their sovereignty. They had to pay tribute to the Horde, but they managed to preserve some part of their sovereignty. And then a unified Russian state began to take shape with its center in Moscow. The southern part of Russian lands, including Kiev, began to gradually gravitate towards another magnet, the center that was emerging in Europe. This was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It was even called the Lithuanian Russian Duchy, because Russians were a significant part of this population. They spoke the old Russian language and were Orthodox. But then there was a unification, the union of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland. A few years later, another union was signed, but this time already in the religious sphere. Some of the Orthodox priests became subordinate to the Pope. Thus, these lands became part of the Polish-Lithuanian state. During decades, the Poles were engaged in pollinization of this part of the population. They introduced a language there, tried to entrench the idea that this population was not exactly Russians, that because they lived on the fringe, they were Ukrainians. Originally, the word Ukrainian meant that a person was living on the outskirts of the state, along the fringes, or was engaged in a border patrol service. It didn't mean any particular ethnic group. So the Poles were trying to, in every possible way to pollinize this part of the Russian lands and actually treated it rather harshly, not to say cruelly. All that led to the fact that this part of the Russian lands began to struggle for their rights. They wrote letters to Warsaw demanding that their rights be observed and people be commissioned here,
Interviewer: including to Kyiv. I beg your pardon, could you tell us what period, I'm losing track of where in history we are? The Polish oppression of Ukraine? It was in the 13th century.
Vladimir Putin: Now I will tell you what happened later and give the dates so that there is no confusion.
Interviewer: But may I ask you, you're making the case that Ukraine, certainly parts of Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, is in effect Russia has been for hundreds of years. Why wouldn't you just take it when you became president? 24 years ago. You have nuclear weapons, they don't, if it's actually your land. Why did you wait so long?
Vladimir Putin: I'll tell you. I'm coming to that. This briefing is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains many things. It's not boring. You just don't know how it's relevant.
Interviewer: Forces in opposition to you? So you're saying the CIA is trying to overthrow your government? Of course, they meant in that particular case the separatists, the terrorists who fought with us in the Caucasus. That's who they called the opposition. This is the second point. The third moment is a very important one. It's the moment when the US missile defense system was created. The beginning. We persuaded for a long time not to do it in the United States. Moreover, after I was invited by Bush Jr.'s father, Bush Sr., to visit his place on the ocean, I had a very serious conversation with President Bush and his team. I proposed that the United States, Russia and Europe jointly create a missile defense system that we believe, if created unilaterally, threatens our security, despite the fact that the United States officially said that it was being created against missile threats from Iran. That was the justification for the deployment of the missile defense system. I suggested working together, Russia, the United States and Europe. They said it was very interesting. They asked me, are you serious? I said, absolutely. I don't remember. It is easy to find out on the internet when I was in the USA at the invitation of a Bush Sr. It is even easier to learn from someone I'm going to tell you about. I was told it was very interesting. I said, just imagine if we could tackle such a global strategic security challenge together. The world will change. We'll probably have disputes, probably economic and even political ones, but we could drastically change the situation in the world. He says, yes, and asks, are you serious? I said, of course. We need to think about it. I'm sold. I said, go ahead, please. Then Secretary of Defense Gates, former Director of CIA and Secretary of State Rice, came in here, in this cabinet, right here at this table. They sat on this table. Me, the Foreign Minister, the Russian Defense Minister on that side. They said to me, yes, we have thought about it. We agree. I said, thank God, great, but with some exceptions. So, twice you've described US presidents making decisions and then being undercut by their agency heads. So, it sounds like you're describing a system that's not run by the people who are elected in your telling. That's right, that's right. In the end, they just told us to get lost. I'm not going to tell you the details because I think it's incorrect. After all, it was confidential conversation. But our proposal was declined. That's a fact. It was right then when I said, look, but then we will be forced to take countermeasures. We will create such strike systems that will certainly overcome missile defense systems. The answer was, we are not doing this against you and you do what you want, assuming that it is not against us, not against the United States. I said, okay, very well. That's the way it went. And we created hypersonic systems with intercontinental range and we continue to develop them. We are now ahead of everyone, the United States and the other countries, in terms of the development of hypersonic strike systems and we are improving them every day. But it wasn't us. We proposed to go the other way and we were pushed back. Now, about NATO's expansion to the east. Well, we were promised no NATO to the east, not an inch to the east, as we were told. And then what? They said, well, it's not enshrined on paper, so we'll expand. So there were five waves of expansion. The Baltic states, the whole of Eastern Europe and so on. And now I come to the main thing. They have come to the Ukraine, ultimately. In 2008, at the summit in Bucharest, they declared that the doors for Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO were open. Now about how decisions are made there. Germany, France, France seemed to be against it, as well as some other European countries. But then, as it turned out, later President Bush and he, such a tough guy, a tough politician, as I was told later, he exerted pressure on us and we had to agree. It's ridiculous. It's like kindergarten. Where are the guarantees? What kindergarten is this? What kind of people are these? Who are they? Who are they? You see, they were pressed, they agreed. And then they say, Ukraine won't be in the NATO, you know? I say, I don't know. I know you agreed in 2008. Why won't you agree in the future? Well, they pressed us then. I say, why won't they press you tomorrow? And you'll agree again? Well, it's nonsensical. Who's there to talk to? I just don't understand. We're ready to talk. But with whom? Where are the guarantees? None. So they started to develop the territory of Ukraine. Whatever is there, I have told you, the background, how this territory developed, what kind of relations they were with Russia. Every second or third person there has always had some ties with Russia. And during the elections in already independent, sovereign Ukraine, which gained its independence as a result of the declaration of independence. And by the way, it says that Ukraine is a neutral state and in 2008 suddenly the doors or gates to NATO were open to it. Oh, come on. This is not how we agreed. Now all the presidents that have come to power in Ukraine, they relied on electorate with a good attitude to Russia in one way or the other. This is the southeast of Ukraine, this is a large number of people. And it was very difficult to dissuade this electorate, which had a positive attitude towards Russia. Viktor Yanukovych came to power and how. The first time he won after President Kuchma, they organized a third round, which is not provided for in the constitution of Ukraine. This is a coup d'etat. Just imagine, someone in the United States wouldn't like the outcome. In 2014?
Interviewer: But may I ask you, you're making the case that Ukraine, certainly parts of Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, is in effect Russia has been for hundreds of years. Why wouldn't you just take it when you became president? 24 years ago. You have nuclear weapons, they don't, if it's actually your land. Why did you wait so long?
Vladimir Putin: I'll tell you. I'm coming to that. This briefing is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains many things. It's not boring. You just don't know how it's relevant.
Interviewer: Well, of course, it did come true. And you've mentioned this many times. I think it's a fair point. And many in America thought that relations between Russia and the United States would be fine with the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War, that the opposite happened. But you've never explained why you think that happened, except to say that the West fears a strong Russia, but we have a strong China the West does not seem very afraid of. What about Russia do you think convinced policymakers they had to take it down?
Vladimir Putin: The West is afraid of strong China more than it fears a strong Russia, because Russia has 150 million people, and China has 1.5 billion population, and its economy is growing by leaps and bounds, or 5% a year. It used to be even more. But that's enough for China. As Bismarck once put it, potentials are the most important. China's potential is enormous. It is the biggest economy in the world today in terms of purchasing power parity and the size of the economy. It has already overtaken the United States quite a long time ago, and it is growing at a rapid clip. Let's not talk about who is afraid of whom, let's not reason in such terms. And let's get into the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected that it would be welcomed into the brotherly family of civilized nations, nothing like this happened. You tricked us. I don't mean you personally when I say you. Of course, I'm talking about the United States. The promise was that NATO would not expand eastward. But it happened five times. There were five waves of expansion. We tolerated all that. We were trying to persuade them. We were saying, please don't. We are as bourgeois now as you are. We are a market economy and there is no Communist Party power. Let's negotiate. Moreover, I have also said this publicly before. There was a moment when a certain rift started growing between us. Before that, Yeltsin came to the United States. Remember, he spoke in Congress and said the good words. God bless America. Everything he said were signals. Let us in. Remember the developments in Yugoslavia before the Yeltsin was lavished with praise? As soon as the developments in Yugoslavia started, he raised his voice in support of Serbs. And we couldn't but raise our voices for Serbs in their defense. I understand that there were complex processes underway there. I do. But Russia could not help raising its voice in support of Serbs. Because Serbs are also a special and close to us nation. With Orthodox culture and so on. It's a nation that has suffered so much for generations. Well, regardless, what is important is that Yeltsin expressed his support. What did the United States do? In violation of international law and the UN Charter, it started bombing Belgrade. It was the United States that let the genie out of the bottle. Moreover, when Russia protested and expressed its resentment. What was said? The UN Charter and international law have become obsolete. Now everyone invokes international law. But at that time they started saying that everything was outdated. Everything had to be changed. Indeed, some things need to be changed, as the balance of power has changed. It's true. But not in this manner. Yeltsin was immediately dragged through the mud, accused of alcoholism, of understanding nothing, of knowing nothing. He understood everything, I assure you. Well, I became president in 2000. I thought, okay, the Yugoslav issue is over, but we should try to restore relations. Let's reopen the door that Russia had tried to go through. And moreover, I said it publicly, I can't reiterate. At a meeting here in the Kremlin, with the outgoing President Bill Clinton, right here, in the next room, I said to him, I asked him, Bill, do you think if Russia asked to join NATO, do you think it would happen? Suddenly he said, you know, it's interesting. I think so. But in the evening, when we met for dinner, he said, you know, I've talked to my team. No, no, it's not possible now. You can ask him. I think he will watch our interview, he'll confirm it. I wouldn't have said anything like that if it hadn't happened. Okay. Were you sincere? Would you have joined NATO? Look, I asked the question, is it possible or not? And the answer I got was no. If I was insincere in my desire to find out what the leadership position was… But if he had said yes, would you have joined NATO? If he had said yes, the process of reproachment would have commenced. And eventually, it might have happened if we had seen some sincere wish on the other side of our partners. But it didn't happen. Well, no means no. Okay, fine. Why do you think that is? Just to get to motive, I know you're clearly bitter about it. I understand. But why do you think the West rebuffed you then? Why the hostility? Why did the end of the Cold War not fix the relationship? What motivates this from your point of view? You said I was bitter about the answer. No, it's not bitterness. It's just a statement of fact. We're not bride and groom, bitterness, resentment. It's not about those kind of matters in such circumstances. We just realized we weren't welcome there. That's all. Okay, fine. But let's build relations in another manner. Let's look for common ground elsewhere. Why we received such a negative response, you should ask your leaders. I can only guess why. Too big a country with its own opinion and so on. And the United States? I've seen how issues are being resolved in NATO. I will give you another example now concerning Ukraine. The US leadership exerts pressure and all NATO members obediently vote, even if they do not like something. Now, I'll tell you what happened in this regard with Ukraine in 2008, although it's being discussed. I'm not going to open a secret to you, say anything new. Nevertheless, after that we tried to build relations in different ways. For example, the events in the Middle East, in Iraq, we were building relations with the United States in a very soft, prudent, cautious manner. I repeatedly raised the issue that the United States should not support separatism or terrorism in the North Caucasus. But they continue to do it anyway. And political support, information support, financial support, even military support came from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus. I once raised this issue with my colleague, also the President of the United States. He says, it's impossible. Do you have proof? I said, yes. I was prepared for this conversation, and I gave him that proof. He looked at it, and you know what he said? I apologize, but that's what happened. I'll quote. He says, well, I'm gonna kick their ass. We waited and waited for some response, there was no reply. I said to the FSB director, write to the CIA, what is the result of the conversation with President? He wrote once, twice, and then we got a reply. We have the answer in the archive. The CIA replied, we have been working with the opposition in Russia, we believe that this is the right thing to do, and we will keep on doing it. Just ridiculous. Well, okay, we realized that it was out of the question.
Interviewer: You said I was bitter about the answer. No, it's not bitterness. It's just a statement of fact. We're not bride and groom, bitterness, resentment. It's not about those kind of matters in such circumstances. We just realized we weren't welcome there. That's all. Okay, fine. But let's build relations in another manner. Let's look for common ground elsewhere. Why we received such a negative response, you should ask your leaders. I can only guess why. Too big a country with its own opinion and so on. And the United States? I've seen how issues are being resolved in NATO. I will give you another example now concerning Ukraine. The US leadership exerts pressure and all NATO members obediently vote, even if they do not like something. Now, I'll tell you what happened in this regard with Ukraine in 2008, although it's being discussed. I'm not going to open a secret to you, say anything new. Nevertheless, after that we tried to build relations in different ways. For example, the events in the Middle East, in Iraq, we were building relations with the United States in a very soft, prudent, cautious manner. I repeatedly raised the issue that the United States should not support separatism or terrorism in the North Caucasus. But they continue to do it anyway. And political support, information support, financial support, even military support came from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus. I once raised this issue with my colleague, also the President of the United States. He says, it's impossible. Do you have proof? I said, yes. I was prepared for this conversation, and I gave him that proof. He looked at it, and you know what he said? I apologize, but that's what happened. I'll quote. He says, well, I'm gonna kick their ass. We waited and waited for some response, there was no reply. I said to the FSB director, write to the CIA, what is the result of the conversation with President? He wrote once, twice, and then we got a reply. We have the answer in the archive. The CIA replied, we have been working with the opposition in Russia, we believe that this is the right thing to do, and we will keep on doing it. Just ridiculous. Well, okay, we realized that it was out of the question.
Vladimir Putin: The West is afraid of strong China more than it fears a strong Russia, because Russia has 150 million people, and China has 1.5 billion population, and its economy is growing by leaps and bounds, or 5% a year. It used to be even more. But that's enough for China. As Bismarck once put it, potentials are the most important. China's potential is enormous. It is the biggest economy in the world today in terms of purchasing power parity and the size of the economy. It has already overtaken the United States quite a long time ago, and it is growing at a rapid clip. Let's not talk about who is afraid of whom, let's not reason in such terms. And let's get into the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected that it would be welcomed into the brotherly family of civilized nations, nothing like this happened. You tricked us. I don't mean you personally when I say you. Of course, I'm talking about the United States. The promise was that NATO would not expand eastward. But it happened five times. There were five waves of expansion. We tolerated all that. We were trying to persuade them. We were saying, please don't. We are as bourgeois now as you are. We are a market economy and there is no Communist Party power. Let's negotiate. Moreover, I have also said this publicly before. There was a moment when a certain rift started growing between us. Before that, Yeltsin came to the United States. Remember, he spoke in Congress and said the good words. God bless America. Everything he said were signals. Let us in. Remember the developments in Yugoslavia before the Yeltsin was lavished with praise? As soon as the developments in Yugoslavia started, he raised his voice in support of Serbs. And we couldn't but raise our voices for Serbs in their defense. I understand that there were complex processes underway there. I do. But Russia could not help raising its voice in support of Serbs. Because Serbs are also a special and close to us nation. With Orthodox culture and so on. It's a nation that has suffered so much for generations. Well, regardless, what is important is that Yeltsin expressed his support. What did the United States do? In violation of international law and the UN Charter, it started bombing Belgrade. It was the United States that let the genie out of the bottle. Moreover, when Russia protested and expressed its resentment. What was said? The UN Charter and international law have become obsolete. Now everyone invokes international law. But at that time they started saying that everything was outdated. Everything had to be changed. Indeed, some things need to be changed, as the balance of power has changed. It's true. But not in this manner. Yeltsin was immediately dragged through the mud, accused of alcoholism, of understanding nothing, of knowing nothing. He understood everything, I assure you. Well, I became president in 2000. I thought, okay, the Yugoslav issue is over, but we should try to restore relations. Let's reopen the door that Russia had tried to go through. And moreover, I said it publicly, I can't reiterate. At a meeting here in the Kremlin, with the outgoing President Bill Clinton, right here, in the next room, I said to him, I asked him, Bill, do you think if Russia asked to join NATO, do you think it would happen? Suddenly he said, you know, it's interesting. I think so. But in the evening, when we met for dinner, he said, you know, I've talked to my team. No, no, it's not possible now. You can ask him. I think he will watch our interview, he'll confirm it. I wouldn't have said anything like that if it hadn't happened. Okay. Were you sincere? Would you have joined NATO? Look, I asked the question, is it possible or not? And the answer I got was no. If I was insincere in my desire to find out what the leadership position was… But if he had said yes, would you have joined NATO? If he had said yes, the process of reproachment would have commenced. And eventually, it might have happened if we had seen some sincere wish on the other side of our partners. But it didn't happen. Well, no means no. Okay, fine. Why do you think that is? Just to get to motive, I know you're clearly bitter about it. I understand. But why do you think the West rebuffed you then? Why the hostility? Why did the end of the Cold War not fix the relationship? What motivates this from your point of view?
Interviewer: But what is, pardon my ignorance, what is denazification? What would that mean?
Vladimir Putin: That is what I want to talk about right now. It is a very important issue. Denazification. After gaining independence, Ukraine began to search, as some Western analysts say, its identity. And it came up with nothing better than to build this identity upon some false heroes who collaborated with Hitler. I have already said that in the early 19th century, when the theorists of independence and sovereignty of Ukraine appeared, they assumed that an independent Ukraine should have very good relations with Russia. But due to the historical development, those territories were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Poland, where Ukrainians were persecuted and treated quite brutally, as well as were subject to cruel behavior. There were also attempts to destroy their identity. All this remained in the memory of the people. When World War II broke out, part of this extremely nationalist elite. The German troops, even the SS troops, made Hitler's collaborators do the dirtiest work of exterminating the Polish and Jewish population. Hence, this brutal massacre of the Polish and Jewish population, as well as the Russian population too. This was led by the persons who are well-known. Bandera, Shukievich. It was those people who were made national heroes. That is the problem. And we are constantly told that nationalism and neo-Nazism exist in other countries as well. Yes, they are seedlings. But we approved them. And other countries fight against them. But Ukraine is not the case. These people have been made into national heroes in Ukraine. Monuments to those people have been erected. They are displayed on flags. Their names are shouted by crowds that walk with torches, as it was in Nazi Germany. These were people who exterminated Poles, Jews and Russians. It is necessary to stop this practice and prevent the dissemination of this concept. I say that Ukrainians are part of the one Russian people. They say, no, we are a separate people. Okay, fine. If they consider themselves a separate people, they have the right to do so. But not on the basis of Nazism, the Nazi ideology.
Interviewer: The Nazi ideology. Would you be satisfied with the territory that you have now?
Vladimir Putin: I will finish answering the question. You just asked a question about neo-Nazism and denazification. Look, the President of Ukraine visited Canada. This story is well known, but being silenced in the Western countries. The Canadian Parliament introduced a man who, as the Speaker of the Parliament said, fought against the Russians during the World War II. Well, who fought against the Russians during the World War II? Hitler and his accomplices. It turned out that this man served in the SS troops. He personally killed Russians, Poles and Jews. The SS troops consisted of Ukrainian nationalists who did this dirty work. The President of Ukraine stood up with the entire Parliament of Canada and applauded this man. How can this be imagined? The President of Ukraine himself, by the way, is a Jew by nationality.
Interviewer: Really, my question is, what do you do about it? I mean, Hitler's been dead for 80 years. Nazi Germany no longer exists. True. And so I think what you're saying is you want to extinguish or at least control Ukrainian nationalism. But how? How do you do that?
Vladimir Putin: Listen to me. Your question is very subtle and I can sell you what I think. Do not take offense. Of course. This question appears to be subtle. It is quite pesky. You say Hitler has been dead for so many years, 80 years. But his example lives on. People who exterminated Jews, Russians and Poles are alive. And the President, the current President of today's Ukraine, applauds him in the Canadian Parliament, gives a standing ovation. Can we say that we have completely uprooted this ideology if what we see is happening today? That is what denazification is in our understanding. We have to get rid of those people who maintain this concept and support this practice and try to preserve it. That is what denazification is. That is what we mean.
Interviewer: So, I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying. I don't think that I am. I think you're saying you want a negotiated settlement to what's happening in Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin: Right. And we made it. We prepared a huge document in Istanbul that was initialed by the head of the Ukrainian delegation. He affixed his signature to some of the provisions, not to all of it. He put his signature and then he himself said, we were ready to sign it and the war would have been over long ago, 18 months ago. However, Prime Minister Johnson came, talked us out of it, and we missed that chance.
Interviewer: And what does that mean for Russia?
Vladimir Putin: You know, as I already mentioned in 988, Prince Vladimir himself was baptized following the example of his grandmother, Princess Olga. And then he baptized his squad. And then gradually, over the course of several years, he baptized all the Rus. It was a lengthy process, from pagans to Christians. It took many years. But in the end, this Orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, deeply rooted itself in the consciousness of the Russian people. When Russia expanded and absorbed other nations who profess Islam, Buddhism and Judaism, Russia has always been very loyal to those people who profess other religions. This is her strength. This is absolutely clear. And the fact is that the main postulates, main values are very similar, not to say the same, in all world religions I've just mentioned, and which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation, Russia. By the way, Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion of those people who came into the Russian Empire. This, in my opinion, forms the basis of both security and stability of the Russian statehood. All the peoples inhabiting Russia basically consider it their motherhood. If, say, people move over to you or to Europe from Latin America, an even clearer and more understandable example, people come, but yet they have come to you or to European countries from their historical homeland. And people who profess different religions in Russia consider Russia their motherland. They have no other motherland. We are together. This is one big family, and our traditional values are very similar. I've just mentioned one big family, but everyone has his, her own family. And this is the basis of our society. And if we say that the motherland and the family are specifically connected with each other, it is indeed the case, since it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children and our families unless we ensure a normal, sustainable future for the entire country, for the motherland. That is why patriotic sentiment is so strong in Russia.
Interviewer: Christianity is specifically a nonviolent religion? Jesus says, turn the other cheek, don't kill. How can a leader who has to kill of any country, how can a leader be a Christian? How do you reconcile that to yourself?
Vladimir Putin: It is very easy when it comes to protecting oneself and one's family, one's homeland. We won't attack anyone. When did the developments in Ukraine start? Since the coup d'etat and the hostilities in Donbas begun, that's when they started. And we're protecting our people, ourselves, our homeland and our future. As for religion in general, you know, it's not about external manifestations. It's not about going to church every day or banging your head on the floor. It is in the heart. And our culture is so human-oriented. Dostoevsky, who was very well-known in the West and the genius of Russian culture, Russian literature, spoke a lot about this, about the Russian soul. After all, Western society is more pragmatic. Russian people think more about the eternal, about moral values. I don't know, maybe you won't agree with me, but Western culture is more pragmatic after all. I'm not saying this is bad. It makes it possible for today's golden billion to achieve good success in production, even in science and so on. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that we kind of look the same, but our minds are beautiful.
Interviewer: So, when does the AI Empire start, do you think?
Vladimir Putin: You are asking increasingly more complicated questions. To answer them, you need to be an expert in big numbers, big data and AI. Mankind is currently facing many threats. Due to the genetic researches, it is now possible to create a superhuman, a specialized human being, a genetically engineered athlete, scientist, military man. There are reports that Elon Musk has already had a chip implanted in the human brain in the USA. What do you think of that? Well, I think there is no stopping Elon Musk. He will do as he sees fit. Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade him. I think he's a smart person. I truly believe he is. So you need to reach an agreement with him, because this process needs to be formalized and subjected to certain rules. Humanity has to consider what is going to happen due to the newest development in genetics or in AI. One can make an approximate prediction of what will happen. Once mankind felt an existential threat coming from nuclear weapons, all nuclear nations began to come to terms with one another since they realized the negligent use of nuclear weaponry could drive humanity to extinction. It is impossible to stop research in genetics or AI today, just as it was impossible to stop the use of gunpowder back in the day. But as soon as we realize that the threat comes from unbridled and uncontrolled development of AI or genetics or any other field, the time will come to reach an international agreement on how to regulate these things.
Interviewer: I appreciate all the time you've given us. I just got to ask you one last question, and that's about someone who's very famous in the United States, probably not here, Evan Gershkovits, who's the Wall Street Journal reporter. He's 32 and he's been in prison for almost a year. This is a huge story in the United States. And I just want to ask you directly, without getting into the details of it or your version of what happened, if, as a sign of your decency, you would be willing to release him to us and we'll bring him back to the United States.
Vladimir Putin: We have done so many gestures of goodwill out of decency that I think we have run out of them. We have never seen anyone reciprocate to us in a similar manner. However, in theory, we can say that we do not rule out that we can do that if our partners take reciprocal steps. When I talk about the partners, I, first of all, refer to special services. Special services are in contact with one another, they are talking about the matter in question. There is no taboo to settle this issue. We are willing to solve it. But there are certain terms being discussed via special services channels. I believe an agreement can be reached.
Interviewer: What is it then? But are you suggesting that he was working for the US government or NATO, or he was just a reporter who was given material he wasn't supposed to have? Those seem like very different things.
Vladimir Putin: I don't know who he was working for. But I would like to reiterate that getting classified information in secret is called espionage. And he was working for the US special services, some other agencies. I don't think he was working for Monaco, as Monaco is hardly interested in getting that information. It is up to special services to come to an agreement. Some groundwork has been laid. There are people who, in our view, are not connected with special services. Let me tell you a story about a person serving a sentence in an allied country of the US. That person, due to patriotic sentiments, eliminated a bandit in one of the European capitals during the events in the Caucasus. Do you know what he was doing? I don't want to say that, but I will do it anyway. He was laying our soldiers, taken prisoner, on the road and then drove his car over their heads. What kind of person is that? Can he even be called human? But there was a patriot who eliminated him in one of the European capitals. Whether he did it of his own volition or not, that is a different question. He committed something different. He is not just a journalist. I reiterate, he is a journalist who was secretly getting confidential information. Yes, it is different, but still, I am talking about other people who are essentially controlled by the US authorities, wherever they are serving a sentence. There is an ongoing dialogue between the special services. This has to be resolved in a calm, responsible and professional manner. They are keeping in touch, so let them do their work. I do not rule out that the person you refer to, Mr. Gershkovits, may return to his motherland. By the end of the day, it does not make any sense to keep him in prison in Russia. We want the US Special Services to think about how they can contribute to achieving the goals our Special Services are pursuing. We are ready to talk. Moreover, the talks are underway. And there have been many successful examples of these talks crowned with success. Probably, this is going to be crowned with success as well. But we have to come to an agreement. I also want him to return to his homeland at last. I am absolutely sincere. But let me say once again, the dialogue continues. The more public we render things of this nature, the more difficult it becomes to resolve them. Everything has to be done in calm manner.
Interviewer: Do you think it's too humiliating at this point for NATO to accept Russian control of what was two years ago Ukrainian territory?
Vladimir Putin: I said let them think how to do it with dignity. There are options if there is a will. Up until now there has been the uproar and screaming about inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia on the battlefield. Now they are apparently coming to realize that it is difficult to achieve, if possible at all. In my opinion, it is impossible by definition. It is never going to happen. It seems to me that now those who are in power in the West have come to realize this as well. If so, if the realization has set in, they have to think what to do next. We are ready for this dialogue.
Interviewer: So, when does the AI Empire start, do you think?
Vladimir Putin: You are asking increasingly more complicated questions. To answer them, you need to be an expert in big numbers, big data and AI. Mankind is currently facing many threats. Due to the genetic researches, it is now possible to create a superhuman, a specialized human being, a genetically engineered athlete, scientist, military man. There are reports that Elon Musk has already had a chip implanted in the human brain in the USA. What do you think of that? Well, I think there is no stopping Elon Musk. He will do as he sees fit. Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade him. I think he's a smart person. I truly believe he is. So you need to reach an agreement with him, because this process needs to be formalized and subjected to certain rules. Humanity has to consider what is going to happen due to the newest development in genetics or in AI. One can make an approximate prediction of what will happen. Once mankind felt an existential threat coming from nuclear weapons, all nuclear nations began to come to terms with one another since they realized the negligent use of nuclear weaponry could drive humanity to extinction. It is impossible to stop research in genetics or AI today, just as it was impossible to stop the use of gunpowder back in the day. But as soon as we realize that the threat comes from unbridled and uncontrolled development of AI or genetics or any other field, the time will come to reach an international agreement on how to regulate these things.
Interviewer: So, when does the AI Empire start, do you think?
Vladimir Putin: You are asking increasingly more complicated questions. To answer them, you need to be an expert in big numbers, big data and AI. Mankind is currently facing many threats. Due to the genetic researches, it is now possible to create a superhuman, a specialized human being, a genetically engineered athlete, scientist, military man. There are reports that Elon Musk has already had a chip implanted in the human brain in the USA. What do you think of that? Well, I think there is no stopping Elon Musk. He will do as he sees fit. Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade him. I think he's a smart person. I truly believe he is. So you need to reach an agreement with him, because this process needs to be formalized and subjected to certain rules. Humanity has to consider what is going to happen due to the newest development in genetics or in AI. One can make an approximate prediction of what will happen. Once mankind felt an existential threat coming from nuclear weapons, all nuclear nations began to come to terms with one another since they realized the negligent use of nuclear weaponry could drive humanity to extinction. It is impossible to stop research in genetics or AI today, just as it was impossible to stop the use of gunpowder back in the day. But as soon as we realize that the threat comes from unbridled and uncontrolled development of AI or genetics or any other field, the time will come to reach an international agreement on how to regulate these things.
Interviewer: What does that mean for Russia?
Vladimir Putin: You know, as I already mentioned in 988, Prince Vladimir himself was baptized following the example of his grandmother, Princess Olga. And then he baptized his squad. And then gradually, over the course of several years, he baptized all the Rus. It was a lengthy process, from pagans to Christians. It took many years. But in the end, this Orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, deeply rooted itself in the consciousness of the Russian people. When Russia expanded and absorbed other nations who profess Islam, Buddhism and Judaism, Russia has always been very loyal to those people who profess other religions. This is her strength. This is absolutely clear. And the fact is that the main postulates, main values are very similar, not to say the same, in all world religions I've just mentioned, and which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation, Russia. By the way, Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion of those people who came into the Russian Empire. This, in my opinion, forms the basis of both security and stability of the Russian statehood. All the peoples inhabiting Russia basically consider it their motherhood. If, say, people move over to you or to Europe from Latin America, an even clearer and more understandable example, people come, but yet they have come to you or to European countries from their historical homeland. And people who profess different religions in Russia consider Russia their motherland. They have no other motherland. We are together. This is one big family, and our traditional values are very similar. I've just mentioned one big family, but everyone has his, her own family. And this is the basis of our society. And if we say that the motherland and the family are specifically connected with each other, it is indeed the case, since it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children and our families unless we ensure a normal, sustainable future for the entire country, for the motherland. That is why patriotic sentiment is so strong in Russia.
Interviewer: What does that mean for Russia?
Vladimir Putin: You know, as I already mentioned in 988, Prince Vladimir himself was baptized following the example of his grandmother, Princess Olga. And then he baptized his squad. And then gradually, over the course of several years, he baptized all the Rus. It was a lengthy process, from pagans to Christians. It took many years. But in the end, this Orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, deeply rooted itself in the consciousness of the Russian people. When Russia expanded and absorbed other nations who profess Islam, Buddhism and Judaism, Russia has always been very loyal to those people who profess other religions. This is her strength. This is absolutely clear. And the fact is that the main postulates, main values are very similar, not to say the same, in all world religions I've just mentioned, and which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation, Russia. By the way, Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion of those people who came into the Russian Empire. This, in my opinion, forms the basis of both security and stability of the Russian statehood. All the peoples inhabiting Russia basically consider it their motherhood. If, say, people move over to you or to Europe from Latin America, an even clearer and more understandable example, people come, but yet they have come to you or to European countries from their historical homeland. And people who profess different religions in Russia consider Russia their motherland. They have no other motherland. We are together. This is one big family, and our traditional values are very similar. I've just mentioned one big family, but everyone has his, her own family. And this is the basis of our society. And if we say that the motherland and the family are specifically connected with each other, it is indeed the case, since it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children and our families unless we ensure a normal, sustainable future for the entire country, for the motherland. That is why patriotic sentiment is so strong in Russia.
Interviewer: Do you think it's too humiliating at this point for NATO to accept Russian control of what was two years ago Ukrainian territory?
Vladimir Putin: I said let them think how to do it with dignity. There are options if there is a will. Up until now there has been the uproar and screaming about inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia on the battlefield. Now they are apparently coming to realize that it is difficult to achieve, if possible at all. In my opinion, it is impossible by definition. It is never going to happen. It seems to me that now those who are in power in the West have come to realize this as well. If so, if the realization has set in, they have to think what to do next. We are ready for this dialogue.
Interviewer: Would you be willing to say, congratulations NATO, you won? And just keep the situation where it is now?
Vladimir Putin: You know, it is a subject matter for the negotiations. No one is willing to conduct or, to put it more accurately, they are willing, but do not know how to do it. I know they want to. It is not just I see it, but I know they do want it. But they are struggling to understand how to do it. They have driven the situation to the point where we are at. It is not us who have done that, it is our partners, opponents who have done that. Well, now let them think how to reverse the situation. We are not against it. It would be funny if it were not so sad. This endless mobilization in Ukraine, the hysteria, the domestic problems. Sooner or later it will result in agreement. You know, this probably sounds strange given the current situation. But the relations between the two peoples will be rebuilt anyway. It will take a lot of time, but they will heal. I'll give you very unusual examples. There is a combat encounter on the battlefield. Here is a specific example. Ukrainian soldiers got encircled. This is an example from real life. Our soldiers were shouting to them, there is no chance, surrender yourselves, come out and you will be alive. Suddenly the Ukrainian soldiers were screaming from there in Russian, perfect Russian, saying, Russians do not surrender. And all of them perished. They still identify themselves as Russian. What is happening is, to a certain extent, an element of a civil war. Everyone in the West thinks that the Russian people have been split by hostilities forever. No, they will be reunited. The unity is still there. Why are the Ukrainian authorities dismantling the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Because it brings together not only the territory, it brings together our souls. No one will be able to separate the soul.
Interviewer: Shall we end here? Or is there anything else?
Vladimir Putin: No, I think that's great. Thank you, Mr. President.
Interviewer: Free speech is bigger than any one person or any one organization. Societies are defined by what they will not permit. What we're watching is the total inversion of virtue.
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