EMMA WATSON EXCLUSIVE: The TRUTH I Have Never Shared Before..

I realized I have the career and the life that looks like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? And have to admit to myself that I wasn't, was one of the scariest

things I've ever had to do. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The

one, the only Jay Shetty. Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so grateful that you're here and you know, you've kind of been out of the public eye for a while now. Yes. And don't do that many interviews. I've watched the interviews you have done even before we plan to do this. And I wanted to ask from an intention point almost, why now? Why today? Why here? I think I mentioned, but I read

your book because my, my dear friend Nupa told me that I should. And every now and again, I would see you come up on my feed. I don't spend much time on Instagram anymore, but when I did, I just felt like you were having a different conversation. And it's not that I have stopped doing interviews because I want to hide myself away. I think it's because I wanted to be able to have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for. And so I called Nupa and said,

I think I just reached out to Jay to see if you would let me come and do his podcast on Monday.

And she was like, I've been waiting for this. I wondered when you would do this. I was like, how did you know I was going to do it? She's like, I don't know. I just felt like this was coming. So,

here I am. And you said yes. And the timing worked. I contacted you last week and it's Monday. And so.

Well, from, well, that means the world to me, truly. I'm so grateful for that because the few interactions and conversations we've had since then, and you've sent me a few things to read over, whether it's journals or reflections. And honestly, I think I just said it to you a few moments ago, and I mean it, even if we weren't having this conversation today and you just sent me those things to reflect on myself, that would have already been a gift. And so the opportunity to actually sit with you and to talk about these things and have the space to have a conversation that you feel you haven't had before means the world to me. And so thank you for trusting me.

And it's, I look forward to getting to know you so much better, but let's, let's dive in. I want to, I wanted to start by asking you, like you said something there that was really beautiful because you stopped for a moment. Then you said, it's easier to be honest. And, and I was, I wanted to understand what that, what that meant to you and how that feels.

Such a big part of my job was trying to think three steps ahead of how everything that I would say would be, could negatively impact the film that I was trying to do justice to and do service to and make sure that people understood what the director had intended. And I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time to honor so many people's work that put together something like a film or, you know, even to some degree, I just did a fragrance with Prada and it's the first

perfume bottle that you can like refill. And I don't know, I, I take my job seriously, I guess.

And so interviews to me felt a lot like chess and it required so much energy. And I think what's nice about the way that I'm showing up today is I'm just showing up for myself. And for once, I actually, I'm not here to, um, speak on behalf of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.

Yeah. I think, I think it's such a fascinating thing because as a viewer, even before I got closer to the industry, as a viewer, everything's made to feel in traditional media so easy and it has levity and it feels like you're getting someone's real personality. And then you realize that you are, that there's definitely reality to it and truth to it. But at the same time, naturally it's work and there's a job. And I think it's not as, and you can shed more light on this. I don't think

it's always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is, but there's, there's just, it's a job and it's work and there's results that matter. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think within those

contexts, everyone is trying to be as authentic as they humanly can be, but there's something about, I think it's why I mentioned, um, earlier about why I felt like this was a good space is there's something inherently written into certain types of forms of media, which is that it doesn't matter what intentional or how authentically you want to show up, but the form like somehow doesn't allow it to some degree. And I've become obsessed with this recently. I've been looking at, okay, what is written into the form of something like Twitter or Instagram or TikTok or a podcast versus,

or a photograph versus a film versus a piece of writing. And it's really interesting to see what a different medium or different form allows or doesn't allow and, or like actually creates or encourages. I've never done a podcast before, but I love, I think what I love about it is the, is the intimacy of it. It's like, I feel like people listen to podcasts when they're like, I certainly do anyway, like first thing in the morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm going on my walk or I'm making my breakfast. It's really like personal, intimate time. And I think the long

form version of these kinds of conversations, uh, allows for such a different kind of discussion that I didn't think was possible before. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you

more. I was going to ask you actually, because I want everyone to get up to date with where you are now. Like, what is, what is your day-to-day life look like? You just said, like, I wake up and I shower and I go on a walk. Like, what does your day-to-day life look like right now? And what, what makes, what's it made of and what are the things that you love and look forward to?

I recently started riding a bicycle and yes, I started riding a bicycle before my driving ban, but now it's particularly fortuitous that I also ride a bicycle, um, for that reason.

But that was mainstream news.

Yeah. Oh my God. I was getting phone calls. Like it's on the BBC. It's on international worldwide news. I was like, my shame is everywhere. This is, I mean, what do I say? I don't know. I think in a funny way, what the sweetest result of it was getting so many messages from being, people being like, happened to me too. I feel you. This is awful. It sucks. Um, which was kind of nice in a way, but, um, yeah, totally. Do you need a lift? It's like, actually, yes. But I think again,

it's funny. Like I, I went from when you work on movies, I don't know if people know this, but like they literally will not ensure you to drive yourself to work. I've asked so many times.

You have to be driven. You have to be driven. It's like not a choice. And especially because they need you there, you know, down to the minute, basically, depending on what they have going on.

And so I went from basically only driving myself on weekends or during holiday to then when I became a student driving myself all the time. And yeah, I did not have the experience or skills, uh, clearly, which I now will and, and, and do. But I think, again, this was one of these like awkward transitions I made from kind of living this like very, very structured life to living a life where I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to get myself to this place and I'm going to like do this thing

that I've basically not done since I was 10 years old. So it's been a discovery and a journey that's been, um, uh, yeah, I guess humbling because on a movie set, I'm able to do all of these like extremely complex things, stunts, sing, dance, like do this thing, do that, whatever. And I'm like, yep, don't worry about it guys. No worries. I've got you. And then I get home and I'm like, okay, Emma, you seem unable to remember keys money to like keep yourself at 30 miles an hour in a,

in a, in a 30 mile speed limit. Like you, you don't seem able to do some pretty like basic life things.

And it was definitely kind of, yeah, I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like, I used to be good at things. Okay. I used to be really good at things. And I know it doesn't look like that right now, but, um, I, I used to, I, I can do things normally. Um, so yeah,

it's been, uh, it's been humbling. I feel, I feel like all of us, I feel like all of us can relate to that though. Really? Because doesn't everyone forget their keys, their wallet doesn't know where things are like, these are, these are like serious. And by the way, I was, I think I was three points away from losing my license before I moved to the States. Thank you for that confession.

I appreciate that so much. Because I was in the States for, I've been in the States now for nine years and I think it happened just, but then all the points get wiped off. And I think I'm now back to six points. I spent two months in London a year. Okay. This makes me feel. Every time I go back, I seem to. Very much better. Yeah. Wow. So I'm confessing too. Okay. Thank you. But I haven't lost it.

A lot of people, actually, a lot of people have like taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me, which I found like very, like very endearing and like really, really appreciate it. But no, I think, you know, I think something I've been realizing is we, most of us live in a state of like, I'm just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together. And the only thing that is different between us is people's willingness to be honest about that, the degree to which they can admit

to, actually, I'm just like scrabbling around trying to keep the pieces together versus, um, oh yeah, I know everything's amazing and everything's incredible and I'm having the best day ever and aren't you? And, you know, so I do love the people who, who are just willing to be like, yeah, it's, uh, it's not going so well today. I'm like, great. Amazing. What a good starting point.

Like, I don't know. Failure as a starting point feels like, I feel like attempting things is so compelling. And of course, success is wonderful, but I love to see people who are like, I'm really bad at this, but I'm going to try. Like, I love you. That's everything to me.

That seems to be becoming harder and harder now. Like that desire to attempt something that you might not be good at because it's exposed or because everyone will see it or because everyone will hear about it. Talking about attempting things. I mean, you're currently studying,

right? You're learning. Yes. Yes. Well, two things I want to say there is I think in a way I was sort of, I mean, I'm someone who's always cared about vulnerability and authenticity, but I think I was also forced into it to a degree that, that maybe even I wasn't ready for. And that like, I just started so young that like, I had to learn in public. I had to make mistakes in public and say, oh, okay, now I've learned this. And I had to be willing to go back and be like,

hmm, like there were some gaps here. Um, and here's what I know now. And I think people's, I agree with you. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I have gone back to school and why I continue to do it is because I want to make sure that I have things to say that are worth saying. And I think you can only do that if you take a minute sometimes and listen to some people who

aren't you, you know, and like not just the sound of my own, my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah, it's been, it's been great. And I think also I needed to, I wanted to be inspired. I think being around my favorite piece has been being around young people who still believe that the world is malleable and things are changeable and that like anything can be done is, um, um, such important energy. There's so much dystopian fiction at the moment and dystopian

movies. It's so dark. And I'm just like, what happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to like planning for the best case scenario? Like where, where did we lose? Yeah. Vision, excitement, imagination, possibility. So I think it's been, um, yeah, it's been wonderful to be around young people and just to sit there and listen. Yeah. Do you ever, I mean, you clearly read so much. Do you have to take yourself away to do it in order to be able to do it? Do you have to

cordon off time? Like how are you still managing to study and learn? Cause that seems like it's

important to you. Yeah. You, you reminded me as you were talking of one of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher, who always said to me, if you want to move three steps forward, you have to go three steps deep first. Whoa. And what I found often in my life is I'm trying to go four steps forward and I haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so it's almost like, I mean, this is probably a terrible analogy, but maybe I'm thinking of the movie, The Substance. I don't know if you watched it.

I didn't see it. Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's, let's remove it. No, no, no, no. Let's forget about it. But it's that idea of like every extra step you take when you haven't learned and you haven't experimented and you haven't attempted is taking away from your ability to move forward.

And sometimes I think when we feel stuck or when we think things are not moving or they're not progressing, it may be a sign to say, well, pause and go deeper for a second or pause and go inward for a second. And so to me, hearing that from you, I find that, and I'm, I definitely fail at this all the time. There are so many times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep. And so whenever I noticed that myself, and I noticed that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working, it's actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read, go study. And so I found that

I've had to really carve out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study.

But I found that I'm someone who doesn't love 30 minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a reader.

I'm someone who needs to read for three or four hours, if not more. And so I found that carving out deep, immersive time is more important to me than this kind of mechanical 30, 40 minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for you as a habit. It doesn't for me because I'm a bit of an extremist and I just need to spend a whole weekend reading as opposed to, you know, I don't need to read every day. So I'll try and, I try once a month on a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love. And I'll take a course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a TED talk online, I'll read as

many books as I can. And I try and immerse myself that way. What's your learning style?

I'm the same as you. And actually, someone who I really respect and ask for advice for often, and I ask for feedback on, on myself. He said to me, Emma, I think if you did 90% of what you wanted to do at 50% of the speed, you would get so much more, like life would be so much better.

And I was like, wow, 50% of the speed and only 90% of what I want to do. And he was like, I think that's the minimum, to be honest. And I was like, wow. But I think it's, yeah, what you said resonates.

I think I often have to remind myself that it's not about speedily getting somewhere. It's just not the point. Things are supposed to happen with a certain timing. And so, yeah, resonates. And to your point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes and look at something. I need kind of like a week on holiday, and then I'll start to deeply get into something. And I need quiet, and I hyper-focus.

And I, that's when I, you know, I love it, but I can't, I can't do little itty bitty bits. It drives

me nuts. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't work for me. It resonates. You said that you felt that you had to learn in public and that you made mistakes. Like what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then that made you feel like, oh gosh, I made that mistake in public, but I was 10 years old or whatever it was. And now you look back and you think, oh, you know,

I was able to process it. Yeah. I think the big one was feminism and intersectional feminism. And frankly, it just like wasn't taught. You know, I had to really seek out, and I'm really grateful actually that I was in many ways quite lovingly called in as opposed to, I mean, some of it was not, but I think that was definitely a moment where I had to say, okay, I'm talking about something really

big and important. And it's actually really important to sit this in some context, which I have not done. And I think that was a big moment. I think it was more, there was an omission that was, there was things that were missing as opposed to, I had said something wrong. I just needed, I just needed to fill in more gaps. And so, um, that was when I started, or that was actually in the middle. I had a, I had a feminist book club called Art Shared Shelf. And, um, so that was part

of those conversations, but it was a good moment for me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good. And then we have an alarm system that goes off, which is like, I'm uncomfortable. This feels uncomfortable. So something bad must be happening. And I must leave as soon as possible. And actually, I think that was when I started to learn, oh, actually me being uncomfortable in a space, um, might be a good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something. And I want to attribute

this. That was Mara Ilarasai who, who helped me understand that and, uh, was a very, very valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable, I don't think it means I need to bolt or something bad's happening. Yeah. Maybe something really good

is about to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to what we started with this idea of attempting means discomfort. Yeah. And attempting means incomplete. Yeah. And, uh, and I love, I love that point you made that actually, whenever we're sharing anything, it's not that it's not true.

It's that it's not complete. Yes. And mostly when we see people say things or share ideas, it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because that means they would have had to think about it from every single vantage point. Yeah. Which is not even humanly possible.

It's not possible. It's not possible. And I think Adrienne Marie Brown, I don't know if you've ever had, she's, oh, she wrote an amazing book, which, um, is one of her more recent ones, which is called Loving Corrections. And she speaks to kind of exactly this, which is,

there's kind of this like, ire that we see online when people don't attribute something perfectly to someone else or they're missing something. And it's like, isn't the whole point of this that we're in conversation. And if it's the right person, you can see that a good intention is there, then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn't need to be, I mean, obviously there's, there's important time and place for holding people accountable. Um, but maybe, I don't know,

attributing like, great, we're all going to help each other kind of pad this out, fill this out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a hard, I think that's the hard part. It's like, how do you differentiate between holding someone accountable and giving them grace?

And that's a really interesting discussion in and of itself. And I don't think I have the answer or know exactly what it is, but I feel like that's a thought exercise as humans, that if we were to do, it would actually, I don't know, what's your take?

Maybe the grace is attributing good intention and the accountability is the courage it takes to actually say something to someone because it's such a scary thing to do. And it often requires a lot of emotional labor. And I find this a lot as a woman, especially as a woman who's dating that I will just be like, is it worth me explaining? Is it worth me explaining this thing? Or should I just

not take the time to do this? Because sometimes I will really, I care about doing it kindly and compassionately. And it's very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone, but you know, sometimes it does fall on deaf ears. And you're like, that text message took me like 40 minutes

to word perfectly or that voice note or whatever. And you're like, is this making a difference? Like, am I getting through to any, is transformative justice real? Like, is this, is this label worth it? But I think I don't have a perfect answer. I, I, I'm not, I haven't lived through enough of it to know. I guess I've just reached a point where it's like, I'd rather, I'd rather die trying. I'd rather die having tried and maybe some small piece of it, even if it's not now, if even if it's some future

point, like something I've said, just like goes, Oh, something at the back of my mind here, someone says something to me, then, you know, maybe it's worth it. Yeah. I will never believe that one negates the other. And that my experience of that person, I don't get to keep and cherish.

I come back to our earlier thing. Like, I just don't think these things are either or.

I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me. And I hope I can keep loving people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that's a very, very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life. I really do believe in having conversations. And I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what we say or what we believe,

but very often how we say it. When you think about little Emma,

what was a childhood memory that you have, a core memory that you have that you feel has defined who you are today somewhat? I think I won't share the specific memory because it's so

personal, but I think I've always felt other people's pain very intensely. Until maybe recently, I

did not know how to give myself grace and navigate seeing my sensitivity as a strength and knowing that it's like my gift, but it also means I have to care for it in specific ways. When you are given gifts, there's often kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And in the same way that like

my position in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power, it's also given me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have these kind of, I don't know when or why it started, but I think I've always, whoever it was that was suffering in the room, I was always the most aware of them.

And I think that has formed a lot of why I could act. It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere. And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time afterwards, they were just like, where did that come from? You don't have any of these experiences. I recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My mum bought me a day in a recording studio and I

sing Natalie and Brulia's Torn. Like I've had my heart broken 50,000 times, you know, like I've been married and divorced and whatever. And I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.

Have you ever thought about where I came from or?

I would imagine, I can't say for sure, I would imagine that my family structure has not been a traditional family structure. And that feeling of knowing that I'm from a situation where we just don't quite fit the kind of nuclear family mold. And I think coming back from France and trying to figure out how to sort of integrate and being the eldest and having my younger brother and having

my mum and like trying to sort of be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone's feelings.

I'm pretty sure that's probably where it, that's where it started.

Yeah.

Um, and then I guess just being aware of other people who might feel the way I did, which is like, who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?

I've always found that it took me a while to recognize, but when I did, it was so helpful that a lot of what I do today is because I mediated my parents' marriage growing up.

Mm, yeah.

And so I developed all these skills of listening and empathy and grace and compassion because I was doing it for two people that I love.

Yes.

And I see it as a strength and yes, it comes with, it comes with certain things for sure.

It comes, you're absolutely right. But at the same time, I've always seen it as a strength.

Yes.

And it's something that has served me well in my marriage. It served me well in my relationships.

And at the same time, it has certain consequences that make you different or make you process things differently. And so, and I remember one thing you shared with me that I was reading it. You, you said I used to spend my weekdays with mom and my weekends with dad.

Yeah.

And you said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes.

Yes.

And they're all like this two lives kind of thing.

Yes, yes.

And I feel that's so relatable. I feel like so many people can relate to that, whether, whether their family was more traditional or wasn't.

Yeah.

I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and not knowing which life they're meant to lead.

Yes.

And that feels like it's kind of played into yours.

Yes, for sure. I think it's also why I've had to really navigate my relationship towards art and acting, because I'm pretty sure that I was using acting as a way of escaping how painful

my parents, like, it wasn't just the divorce. It was just like the continuing situation of living between two different houses and two different lives and two different sets of values. And as a child, like being aware of like, we don't quite have the support we need here for this. Like, this is not quite, we're not quite like, and I think it does. It makes you,

it made me a slightly serious child because I was like, had that consciousness. And then when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad, it was like a very different set of rules, very different situation. And so you do, you kind of like, and I think everyone can relate to this to an extent that it's not that you are like wanting to become different people, but it's you, there are different expectations of you in different places that you understand that you need to fill. And so I think

some of that split then became, I was like, okay, wow, you know, my parents have very different views on different things. And the hard part of that was that no one gave me any easy answers. It meant I had to form all of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus. And it made me a critical thinker for sure, because, and so that was amazing. And also really like, gosh, okay, I need to decide what

I think is important in life and what my opinions are. No one's handing me this. Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of, um, not wanting to be so split as well and why it's been important to me to try to remain whole in all the different circumstances of my life and ask myself questions about how I can do that best. Because I think I experienced as a child that the split is painful. Like if you're living a reality one way, but presenting something else, those are the moments when it can, you can

really feel torn apart. And I recognized that. And I didn't want that to be my life. I didn't want

pretend to be my real life. Yeah. I mean, that's so, I, I can so relate to you personally on the idea of not having a blueprint and having to create my own and how often when you don't have a blueprint, you feel you have two choices and that's where you feel torn. Whereas when you look at it as a whole and go, okay, well now I get to craft my own narrative from this. And I may take a few pieces from here and a few pieces from here and I'm going to form my own puzzle, but I don't have to choose

a path. Yeah. It's, it's really beautiful when you, when you do it, but it's really hard in the beginning because it just feels like there are two paths. And I wanted to talk about how much that's impacted, you know, your work. And you, you said there, you said that one thing you mentioned that really stood out to me was you felt that acting was in some way escaping that kind of which version do I have to be. And I think so much of what we do for work or so much of what we pursue as humans is based on something we're trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something.

And I think we haven't often looked at work that way. Like sometimes we choose a career because we know it will make our parents happy. And so we're living a pattern or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in. And it's fascinating to me to look at that. And for you, you were acting in school plays since you were a young girl and was acting always something you were going to do? Or did it, do you feel like it was this cross section of what was happening in your personal life that actually made that feel like the direction you

would choose? I think it's so interesting that you said those words reveal and escape that they're kind of the same thing because I think that it all started with a poem. I did a poetry competition when I was nine called the Daisy Pratt Poetry Competition. And I'm actually naturally quite a shy person. And so actually for me to stand up in front of people feels like an out of body experience.

Like there's so much adrenaline coursing through my veins that it does feel like a moment outside of time.

And I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn't space to have conversations or express myself at that time in the way that I needed to, I did it through performance. And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of, of what I was

like the discomfort of that time of not quite knowing who I was or how to be in the world. And

as I've become more healed and whole and, and more comfortable being myself, it's been interesting to ask myself, do you still need acting? Do you still need to act like, why, what are you doing that for?

And like the kind of, it used to feel like almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it. And what's really interesting now is I don't feel quite that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And I wonder if it's because actually I have spaces where I can now take some of those feelings and talk about some of the things I don't think I had space to voice without doing it on camera in front of thousands of people. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is, which is, which is scary in its own way, right? It's easy to, it's easy to think, oh, that makes sense. But then it's like, well, no, it's, it's really challenging to do that second part. Yeah.

Even, even if it makes sense rationally or logically. And was, was that what in, in 2019, when you kind of pulled away, was your reason I want to heal and work on myself or was it actually, I don't feel a compulsion anymore? Like, was that the inflection point of doing some self-work or was

that the inflection point of, I need to pause? I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my life that I was actually healing and I didn't want to keep revisiting in order to do some of the more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do. I realized, I remember

by Beth's, um, deathbed by her, by her graveside when we shot those films, like normally there are like these painful memories that I would use for those moments. And I realized, I was like, I don't know if this is super great for me, actually to keep, to keep revisiting these, or if I want to use these as my tools. And I don't think that means I'll never come back to acting.

I think it just meant, I was like, hmm, I wonder if there's a different way to do this.

I think the second thing was, to be really honest, I was coming to those sets

with an expectation that I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was that we were, the people I worked with were going to be my family and that we were going to be lifelong friends.

I came to work looking for friendship and that was a very painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood. Like bone-breakingly painful. Um, because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships. They're looking for, this is my chance. This is my role.

This is what I want out of it. I'm focused. This is my job. This is my career. Like, let's go.

And I was not of that mindset. And so I found, I found the rejection really painful.

The friendship rejection. Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, I, I think it's so unusual to make a set of films for 12 years and we were a community. Like we, we really were. And so I took that as an expectation into my, into my other workplaces.

And I just got my, I just got my ass kicked. I really did.

Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it just hierarchy? Was it?

I think it was a combination. It was a Molotov cocktail of all of the above. As we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for those kinds of highly competitive environments.

It, yeah, it broke me. But in a way I'm proud that it did, because I guess that means I have something left to break. I have a heart left to break. So it was a hard learning, but I think there's something that I'm proud of in a way that there were certain things I couldn't withstand.

I'd much rather keep my humanity.

My humanity.

I'm managing to like keep the tears inside.

If you need it, there is a tissue down.

That's really kind.

Yeah. No, but I really appreciate you saying that. And I, I mean, it's so powerful to hear how you've processed it.

Like just what you added there, because when, when I saw your voice change and just when you were expressing it and, and it, and it hit me as you said it, and I felt it. And then the way you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling rise really beautifully because what you said is so true that if you were broken by a frequency of envy and competition and whatever else it was, that's only proof that you were vibrating in a way that didn't want to be pulled down into that.

And it's so interesting though, how when we break to those sorts of emotions and ideas, we feel we're the weak one.

Yeah.

When it's completely the opposite.

That was, that was the most painful thing was I thought I, I beat myself up for years afterwards, really thinking like punishing myself, saying you couldn't hack it.

You weren't strong enough.

And yeah, what, what bliss and what peace I think to understand that

to have come out on top would have been a greater failure, I think, in terms of who I actually care about being.

Yeah, it's almost like if you abandoned yourself in that moment in order to align with that new way of thinking.

Yeah.

You'd probably beat yourself up more long term and have a much harder time.

Yes, I think so.

I don't know.

I've just got to this place where it's just, if it costs me any part of my piece, it's just too expensive.

And of course, like there's opportunities that I think, wow, like that would be amazing.

And I care deeply about my work.

Um, but I think it's just, I think I just used to completely sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I was trying to achieve.

And that could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting.

I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability.

And unless you have the right people around you that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you're going to get smashed up.

You're just going to get crushed.

And so I think now it's just a case of me being like, okay, I know that for me to do anything, I have to have people in the room that care about me more than whatever the product is, or whatever the final product is.

And if that isn't the case, I cannot be there because I'm just someone who like gives it all.

It's how I'm built.

And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully, I'll keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.

Yeah.

It seems like I've spoken to so many, and we were talking about this last week when we were speaking on the phone that I've worked with so many young people, musicians who've all been told like, all right, if you don't do this over the next 12 months, you're not going to make it.

Yeah.

Or like, if you don't do this right now, if you don't say yes to this song or this movie, it's like, you might as well wave it goodbye. You're never going to get the Oscar or the whatever it may be, or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I can't imagine being a young person, like I'm 37 now, and you process ideas like that differently.

Yeah.

But if you're in your teens or even 20s, and maybe even 30s, but you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you.

Yeah.

And it feels like being surrounded by people who really believe in you and your longevity and your art versus, but that's hard to find.

It is. It's hard to find. And, you know, I had a wonderful team. Like I really did.

I think it's just like understanding that no one at the end of the day is going to be in the room, like when you're actually doing the thing, you have to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure. Also making films, the hours on them are so demanding that to have your own life alongside that, to have that balance is almost impossible. It's so all or nothing. It's so all encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role. You kind of go through these,

you know, working six days a week, 14 to 16 hour days. And then you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it. And maybe you'll have a two or three month gap. And then there's just kind of like nothing. And so you're like riding this like incredible peak of like adrenaline and cortisol, and then you just get like dropped off the edge. And then you're like, okay, wait, now I have to be a functioning human again. And I have to like figure out how to be a person in the real world. And I think some of those extremes then force an actor to either decide, well,

I'm going to back to back it. So I'm going to basically go from one movie to the next, and that's going to be my full life. Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system

that you need a system and a support system to help you navigate. And I think it's why addiction and

mental illness in my profession and in a lot of high stress, high profile professions is so commonplace because you're trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.

Yeah. Talk to people about why, because I think from the outside, when someone sees a red carpet, or when someone sees in a van, it looks really glamorous. Like until I ever attended anything, and I always looked at it as like, oh my gosh, it's so glamorous and everyone's there and everyone must be friends and everyone must know each other because they all, you know, but, but then you're not saying that and neither is, and, and anytime I've ever been on a red carpet, everyone's anxious and everyone's nervous and that's the real experience. And people are almost waiting to leave.

Yes. And some people do the red carpet and leave immediately, but, but what's going on there? Like,

walk us through like, for people who may not. I think the first step is to just understand,

even though you're wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you're there to do something exciting, I don't think there's anything that can make it not weird that people are screaming at the top of their lungs. Like it, it just, everything in your body says something's wrong. Like people are screaming, something's wrong. But then you have to try to pretend as though this is all normal and you're unfazed. So you're like navigating this like sensory overload. That's like telling you, oh my God, something is

really wrong. You had a pose telling you where to look, telling you. Yeah. So you're trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong, but I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am the most graceful and the most calm I've ever been in my whole life. And I need to like pose for this person and there's 50 different cameras and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into each and every one. And I probably will have had four different notes from the stylist about how I'm supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress. And then I've got like 25 different talking

points from the movie of like what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about.

And so you're like, you need to be thinking about that and the juggle is crazy. And then I think everyone is in this like kind of jumped up state. And so like trying to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in which you like have a nice chat with someone really. I mean, maybe if you're really lucky and you've worked with someone for a long time and you've established some trust, but I think

that was the other thing that was like really difficult about movies and what I kind of laugh at, not in a mean way, but like, you know, you always get asked when you're like promoting these big films, like, so do you guys hang out on set? And like, do you guys hang out? And like, are you all friends?

And everyone's sort of like nods enthusiastically, but the truth is no one has seen each other outside of work.

Like very, very, very rarely, mostly because the schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired that when they get any time off, you're going straight back to your hotel room to try to like claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can. And like, I don't know, like it, friendships require time and trust and presence. And those things like very rarely come about. They can, and they like do occasionally, but it's more of a, more of a, you know, solar eclipse than a, than an everyday situation.

So yeah, but you have to pretend. I think that's the part that starts to feel icky after a while is like, you, you have to pretend that you're all best friends and what's so sad.

And I, I know this isn't just the case for me, but like, I think people wish they were, I think we wish we did have those real connections and we did have that real support. And so having to pretend that something exists that you actually really want, but don't have is like, it's like pretty grainy in the wound. You know, it's like, it's pretty like tough pill to swallow to have to act out something that you wish were real, but isn't real. Um, and I think that's the part that starts to

kind of, yeah, I can only speak for myself, but those are definitely the moments where I've been like, this feels dark. Like anyone else, like this feels dark. Um, yeah.

Yeah. And, and there's such a real reminder that it's still work. And it's almost like asking anyone who works at any company and saying, Hey, do you hang out with your team after work every night?

And the answer is probably no. Yeah. No, everyone's got home to their family. And maybe you've got a couple of, of course, you've got a couple of friends at work and it's wonderful if you have a friend at work that you work out with or see after hours, but you're not hanging out as the whole crew. It's, it's very unlikely. A hundred percent. And, and it, and it is that reality check of no, but this is also just work. Yeah. And their, their character stories are not their personal stories and it doesn't. And that's what I wanted to go back. You mentioned that you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel. And I wanted to ask you, how did that come about in the first?

Like what, what was, where did the auditions come from? Like, how did that become a part

of your life? Yes. So I did not go to a performing arts school. I'd never done anything. I never acted professionally, but they came, they, they did like a basically country-wide search to find Harry, Hermione and Ron. And so they asked my school if they wanted to submit any students who love drama, who wanted to audition. And so I was one of, I think about 12 students that was asked if I wanted

to audition. I don't know. It was weird. I had this weird weighted fated sense of destiny pretty much from the moment that, that they said they mentioned the audition. I remember I brought, I think maybe like seven different beanie babies with me along and like all these different like lucky talismans. And I loved the world and the books so much. My dad had been reading them to me before bed when I would

spend the weekends with him and on long car journeys. We'd often drive back and forwards to France and that's how the time would be passed. And so I was just like, loved the world, loved Hermione. And for me, it wasn't so much about acting so much as it was that like, I just, the books meant so much

to me personally. Did you feel like it was destiny for you or did it feel like, did you always feel

like it was going to be this? I always felt like Hermione was, I knew I was never auditioning for anything else. Like I knew it was her. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. Something felt right about it. And my, yeah, my poor parents, because if I hadn't have got it, I think they knew her crush. I ended up doing nine auditions over a period of over a year and a half, which for a

nine year old is a massive commitment, but I was, I loved her. I loved it. I really did.

What do you wish now that you would have known before you became Hermione?

I did a pretty good job and I'm actually, I give my mother specifically credit for this. She was like a warrior for my normalcy and for me having an ordinary life and going to school. And no one wanted that. I mean, it would have been considerably easier if I had not continued going to school.

Um, but she, wow. Like I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of

the ordinary world and feeling I had a place in it and that I belonged outside of those films was going to be crucial. Wow. That's really incredible. It was because she basically didn't have anyone on her team. She was kind of on her own on that one. And she fought tooth and nail. She was like on the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams. She has to go back. Like she needs to be here. She, she needs to have some parts of a normal childhood and yeah, forever in her debt.

That's so special to have had that and have those. Yeah. To have a parent who can foresee like, and you can't see anything for yourself. Yeah, no. And to be honest, I didn't really,

I didn't really get it. I was like, okay, like, I guess it's important. Like, you know, I didn't really get it. So I think, yeah, she was amazing. Yeah. When, when did, because from what I was

reading from what you shared with me, when did Emma, you, Emma Watson and Hermione and the characters that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined because that expectation that comes with, I, I remember this and I, and I share it because to, to give it to context to people, I was walking down the road with one of my friends, who's an actor who gets recognized a hundred times for every one time I get recognized. So just to put it in context. And so if we're walking

down like this person gets stopped a hundred times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once.

And it was really beautiful because we'd spent a day together and that person had been stopped a hundred times and maybe I've been stopped a couple of times. And then they said something to me. They said, Jay, I, Jay, you're really lucky. And I said, what do you mean? And, and I thought they were going to say, because I'm anonymous to some degree, but they didn't. He said to me, he goes, Jay, you're really lucky because he goes, when people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be. And when they stop you, they stop you for who you are. And it was really encouraging words from someone that I respect a

lot. And I was like, wow, like I never thought about it like that. I just, I just, it hadn't hit me how different it was. And because I think you just see fame or success or whatever it is, this one big bubble of stuff, especially when you're not that close to, or you don't know too much about it. And it was that conversation that made me even be even more personal with everyone that I ever spoke to because they'd always have a personal story or, uh, and, and that's not, not to say that isn't true for music and for acting. And of course there is, I don't want to

take away from it. No, no. Um, and I'm not saying that as a egotistical statement, I'm saying it as like how hard it is for an individual to go through that and to be disassociated from themselves.

Yes. Uh, because that role could be a part of you. It could be an expression of you. It was a part of your life at a same period of time, but of course it isn't you. Yes. Um, but does that make any sense?

I remember when I gave my UN speech about he for she and about feminism and women's rights and people started stopping me because of things that I had come from me and that I'd said, it felt like a very significant transition for me because I, for the first time, I felt like I could look someone in the eye and receive and accept something that they were saying because I, I felt like it actually had something to do with me and I wasn't just kind of a, like a custodian of something sacred, which I did

take very seriously and I still do, but it had been a direct transmission for me. And I think that's why writing has become so important to me is because it's a way that I can say things directly and that feels really meaningful. Yeah. I love, I love the word

you just used there of the difference between being a custodian and, you know, direct transmission, you said, and, and that's such an interesting way to think about it. And I think each and every one of us don't want to be known as a lawyer or an accountant or a doctor or a like, yes, that's a part of us and it's a role we play in society. And it of course brings significance and value and worth and all of these wonderful things, but I think everyone wants to be something beyond that.

And no one wants to be that in their home and no one wants to be that with their friends and no one, no one wants, and, and me included, by the way, it's like, I, I try and me and my friend, one of my friends who's a, who's a well-known standup comic. We always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command. And, and I try with my friends to not say smart.

I try not to say thoughtful, revelatory things because with my friends, I just want to be like, I don't want to have to coach someone's marriage or solve their thing. I don't want to do that. Like I, I just want to be. And, and so even for someone who loves, who is doing direct transmission a lot more of the time, even then there's a feeling of, well, I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation. I need to put this down.

Yeah. I need to put the one down, right?

Totally. Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me, like understanding again, like why I needed to take a minute is that like, even being the person who was promoting the work became a kind of role, like Emma Watson became this like avatar, this, this person that I identified with, but also kind of didn't she'd become reproduced so many times over and, and kind of had become so loaded by

all of this different stuff that I, she almost felt too heavy to carry. Like I kind of was like, I don't even know if I can, if I can be that bitch anymore. Like, you know, I went on a date like two years ago and like, it was the best confession ever, but I was like messaging this person. They were like, Emma. And he was like, can I just say something like Emma Watson makes me anxious? And I was like, Emma Watson makes me anxious too. Like we are on the same page. Like I get it. Like I, I can't even be her. I don't know how to be her live up to, to what I look like

on the cover of a magazine. I don't look like that. I get, I, I can't, I don't know. I don't even know how to touch what that person's become. It's kind of a funny realization at some point where it's like, I need to step off this thing. Cause I just, once you've, I don't know, there's such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman, like, I feel, I feel so envious of my male co-stars who can just

put on a t-shirt and show up without like this like whole rigmarole of kind of becoming acceptable enough to be on camera. And oh, like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently and just like doing the thing because it's like the amount of courage it will have taken to do that. Like, I cannot even begin to express to you. It's wild. The, the expectations are insane. It's impossible.

So on vacation. Yeah. Yeah. Just the, the, the, the beauty expectations are so difficult to reach and the bar gets raised all the time. So it's like, you're on this constantly, like, I don't know, it's like a, some sort of like Survivor's Island game show beauty nightmare where, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's nuts. So I, yeah, I think part of also not feeling like

Emma Watson is just like the whole like glam squad culture of, of it all is, it's intense.

Yeah. It's so fascinating because there's almost like this, this learning of becoming, you know, becoming Emma Watson, becoming, you know, being all the roles you play. And then it almost feels like what you're saying is there was a moment you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant. Totally.

But that seems really hard. Yes.

Because. Yes.

Learning it was hard enough and then to unlearn it when it's linked to your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community connection, all of the, where you live. How do you even begin to

unlearn being Emma Watson? It's a knotted ball. You have to sort of unravel very carefully and.

And carefully, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. I think.

It's not like a wrecking ball. Like you're not just.

I mean, some things had to be done like the wrecking ball, honestly. And then some parts of it were like a much slower, more gentle teasing out. But I mean, I don't know if you find this, but I imagine that a lot of your friendships are made through the podcast and made through your work.

And there's kind of this like non separation between your home and your family and your relationship and the podcast. But tied into that, there's also like the very real, some people will be wanting you to reference their new book or like promote something for them or whatever. And like navigating that so many of these threads are entwined, does it ever start to feel like you're like, wow, this is a lot. People ask me all the time, do you ever wonder why people want to hang

out with you or be your friend or whatever? And does that ever get complicated for you?

I think because my direct transmission is so clear that if anyone in the industry wants to connect, yeah, there's usually quite a distinct journey that they're on that mine can support or help with as a friend or in a more formal capacity. And that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for because people are not inviting me out to crazy parties and I'm happy.

They're not?

Yeah, they're not. They don't think I'm fun enough. I just saw a clip of the other day of Austin Butler saying he's never been invited to a bachelor party before. And I was like, I couldn't believe it. But that kind of feeling, I don't get invited to crazy parties and I'm grateful for that. That's not really a part of my life, unless it's a spiritual party and then I'm all game.

And, uh, uh, but, but there isn't that. And so sometimes I think it's a good, my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don't really get asked to come to things. But then at the same time, it takes me to get to know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend, uh, to Greece and we played, and I don't think they were anticipating this, but we played three nights of poker from midnight to 7 AM. And it was amazing. And I loved it. And I had the best time. And I don't think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early, but I was on vacation and I was like, I'm game. Yeah, exactly. And I'm one. So I was like,

you know, I'll take it. And I'm very competitive in that way. And I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is, I think there's a big thing for me has been from, I grew up as part of a big

community in London and a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young.

And I think that what I've found is it's very difficult to discern for people externally, and even for people in that community as to how close they were to me.

Right.

And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together and there were 200 people in the class.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close.

Right.

When in actuality, I've never had a one-to-one conversation with that person.

Right.

And so now their opinion matters to the outside world. It matters to the media. It matters to whatever. But I actually don't know that person and they don't really know me.

Right.

It's just so that we went to the same congregation in the same year, which has lots, thousands of people in it. And so I struggle with that. And then I also struggle with people coming up to me and saying, oh, Jay, I've known you for 20 years. And, you know, like from back in the day at the temple.

And, but I'm like, we didn't like, we didn't ever have any, like a conversation. And I still have all my best friends from that community that are still my closest friends. Yeah.

And they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult.

Yeah, that's true.

Uh, is, is hard to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything I do, but I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did.

Right.

But they've almost created a story within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big community, this isn't a group of school friends or something, which I'm still really close with. It's more this expanded community, which you were just visible in.

Right.

Not even audible or, or if that makes any sense.

No, that makes perfect sense. I think, yeah, being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate with, yeah, with the kind of, I guess, like being a famous person in essence is like lots of people can project lots of things onto you. And like, if they had some level of contact with you, it makes those kinds of projections a lot easier. And then you're like, oh, wow, we're in a completely different, like your experience of this is so different from mine.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and yeah. And, and I mean, yours is like a million X that, and, you know, I can't imagine, I can't, I can't imagine, I can't imagine how hard dating is.

Like you talked about in some of the journal reflections that you sent me, like this idea of just like dating is hard as a 20 year old, 30 year old woman anyway.

Yeah.

And then to add your life to it.

Yeah.

Talk to me, you've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've had, like, what does it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and someone goes, wait a minute, you're Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it does, it does feel like my avatar enters the room unexpectedly all of a sudden.

And then I'm like navigating a completely different conversation if someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet. And that can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite kind of seeing someone's like behavior, like completely switch and turn and change can be kind of a jarring experience.

I think what's nice is at the very least like dating for everyone is a, is basically a complete disaster and free for all. So like, I feel like I'm in good company in that sense, but I think it's funny. Occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films and I will be like, please don't apologize. That is bliss to me, like music to my ears that like you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson

avatar person will not be this ghost in the room. So, um, that's happened a few times where people have been like, I'm really sorry. And I'm like, please don't apologize. I'm so relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved.

And then you realize they have the box of that later on.

Yeah. No, my God. I hope not. But I mean, I guess like I want people to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't have to navigate that extra like degree of fitness is, uh, helpful.

A relief. How do you help people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?

You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent you to read, but I actually read parts of it to people. Um, because I find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me, like, I almost need aids. Like it's not, it's so difficult to convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I, sometimes I'll just be like, can I just like read you this thing

I wrote because I think it's going to shortcut you somewhere. And so that's actually been incredibly helpful. And I'm, I'm so glad I, I went and did this, this creative writing masters and I've spent more time writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate it to myself. Like how, how are you supposed to explain something to someone else?

You can't really even understand for yourself. So I think writing, creative writing, making art has been the best therapy I've ever done because it's helped me get clarity and also just be able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one-on-one therapy can be amazing, but like, there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to that, that maybe when you're writing something down and when I wrote the play, I wrote it for my friends and family. And I was able to kind of

be more my spring, more of myself to the picture in a way, which is someone who's like, this is just nuts.

Like, I just can't, like, I can't, sometimes I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life.

And, um, I need a place I can put that.

Yeah. I, I loved, so just for everyone who's, you know, hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play which helped her closest friends and family understand her experience of life, basically. Yeah. Right. Is that a bad description? No, no, it's not a bad description, but like,

specifically I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically being a full-time actress and activist to trying to move home and like be a normal student and attend a normal university as a super famous person. And I, I basically kept a journal of what those experiences were like and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and then performed it as a one woman show at the end

of the first year and handed that in as my, as my first year piece of work. And yeah. Yeah.

Did it get an A? It got a distinction. Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love it.

It actually did. Not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point. But I think the coolest thing was, was like, I read it for my roommate, for example, who's been living with me for seven years. And he was like, wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop. He's like, is this actually how you feel? Like, do you actually feel this? And I was like, yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't. And he was like, I had no idea that this was how you felt.

And this is someone I live with. And so for me, who I perceive myself to be this like massive open book. And actually I realized I was like, wow, I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like. And actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And so even my parents were just like, couldn't believe it really. Yeah.

I'm sure they were brought to tears by parts of it. I mean, I was so moved by it. And I really hope you do one day make it a production in some capacity because it was so moving and so powerful.

And it was, Emma, honestly, it was what every public figure has ever tried to explain to me about their experience, yet put so succinctly, powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it. And I think anyone meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood, loved for what they have and not who they are, seen for parts of themselves and not all of themselves.

And I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share it one day in however way you decide to, because honestly, I was gripped. I was completely captivated. I couldn't put it down.

I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and again. It's not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest. And for everyone who's listening and watching, I think the lesson for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative that when you shared that with me, when we were speaking on the phone, I was so in awe of that, that therapy in one-to-one setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in, if it turns

into something you have to put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. The revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, speaking. That's great and that's a part of it,

but if you can go one step ahead. Truly, I feel this urgency and desperation to communicate this specific piece, which is make art about your experiences. The neurosis of being a writer or anyone making anything is like, I don't have anything valuable to say. It's all been said before. This is so self-indulgent. This is so narcissistic. Who even wants to hear this? This is bad. I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this, but trust me, whatever you think people know

about you or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays, and you don't need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really don't. And in fact, I have to write on my mirror. I have it written on my door. I am an artist because I don't think anyone feels like they deserve that title. I've been making films and writing and making art since I was nine years old and I don't feel

like I deserve that title and I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle. I really, really do. But there is something about doing it and having a physical thing because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it's not a great place for them to live. They need to come out somewhere. And once you can put them somewhere, then you're free. Being understood or feeling like you're understood by

the people around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it's what we're looking for when we do so many things, but often that's not the way to find it. And I just, God, yeah. Honestly, I want to go to every person in the street and be like, you need to write a one person show about your life and then perform it for your friends and family. Or like, you need to like, you know, paint the thing, write the song, like, just do it because it's kind of one of the best, most

meaningful things I've done is trying to make sense of it all. Yeah.

And I love that you did it for your family. Like that's the part that proves to me when you say the message of make your art and you know, you don't need to be a full-time actor or director or movie filmmaker. It's like, you actually lived that part. And that's what I love about it the most is that you didn't make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.

And honestly, first I wrote it for myself. I didn't think I would, honestly, I didn't think I had the guts to read this aloud to anyone. I thought it was just for me and maybe like two other people and performing it for my, like, I didn't even invite my family until like two days before, because I just didn't think I had the courage. Make art for people you love, like make beautiful things for people that you love, just for people that you love. Like that's one. I, I, I guess like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for like the world basically from such a young age.

And I, I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made Little Women, I mean, that's such an amazing thing about Louise May Alcott is that really, she wrote those stories for her sisters. And so many people's journeys and paths start because yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just one person. There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, right, I'm done with university now. And now I'm going to just like focus full, what I should be doing is just focusing full time on being an actress and, you know,

doing all of that. And I completely missed actually that Emma, the academic, Emma, the student, Emma, the person that needs to, needs to constantly be learning things facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood. And that without her, I actually couldn't do it. I needed, I need to have both. And that when one gets stripped away and like, even as I'm, and I explore this in the play as well, it's like, even as I have returned to some form of

normalcy, ordinary life, whatever that looks like to me now, like, I also can't kill her off completely. You know, my public person, there's parts of me that like still does need those outlets and to do those things too. And I'm figuring out what those are, but I think that's what's so complicated about being human is, is, is it's yes. And not either, or it's, we need, we need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we, what we want to do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind, like kind of finding

a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it. Yeah.

I think that's, I mean, you've, you've said it so well, and I really feel that that's what it's been for me. It's, I feel like as humans, we're very good at being like, okay, this chapter of my life is over and we do it because labeling helps, but it's like you went from being a toddler or an infant, and then you became, you know, a teen and then a young adult and then an adult. And then, so we have all these labels and it almost feels like we live our life that way. It's like, okay, I was a student at university. If I went to university and now I am a, I have a job and I'm an employee or an entrepreneur, whatever it is. And, and labels are useful. So I'm not going to say

they aren't, but what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life, which means now there isn't a yes and it's an either or. So it's like, I was an actress. Now I'm going to be an academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and whatever else, you know?

And, and I think that's what it's been for me. It's like, I know that the people that know me best will say, Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality. We can talk about business and we can talk about communication, media, art, and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day. And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Whereas if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited. And what I've realized is I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself, even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things.

Yes. Because yeah.

And how amazing to get to that point where I realized for a long time I was pushing for, I need everyone to understand me and I need them to understand these decisions. And I need them to understand that I'm all of these things. And I'm like, but do you really, Emma, do you actually really need them to get it? Or is it enough that you get it, you see it and understand it, and you're making it possible and giving yourself permission to do that. And I think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it matters way more that I accept myself than that I spend so much energy

and time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go, people start getting it. Yeah. Um, which is, which is funny.

Emma, how do you, how do you see love today?

God, what a great question. Oh, um, I see love today. Oh, okay. I think I have an answer for this. How exciting. I was right there from now. I was like, am I that deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um, I think that, oh, we don't talk about love nearly enough, or I think we need to talk about it so much more because I had such a, not a misunderstanding, but I think I had a very

limited understanding of it for a long time, which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies, this idea that like falling in love, once it sort of happened to you, it's like irreversible, you know, like step into this portal that you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually I think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you and things like, can you

argue well? Can you be, is the conflict that you have generative and can you make someone else feel safe? Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean like out of physical danger. I mean, like, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person into like a complete freefall and or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this, like,

is this okay for you? Does this feel good to you? This is how it feels for me. And like, there's like that constant back and forth and that constant check-in is like a game of, um, chicken in a way of like, can you find someone who's willing to be as vulnerable as it necessarily requires? I think it's like figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in some kind of dance with someone else. And that is a very different understanding that I've come to of

what love is than I had. I mean, like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even like just lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do. I really, really do.

What do you think love is, Jay?

Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping this back, Emma. This is about you. It's not about me.

This is a conversation.

I know, I know. I'm joking. I just...

Well, does any of what I've said resonate?

It does. It does. It resonates a lot.

I'm on the right track, Jay. I need you to tell me.

I think it resonates a lot. I grew up in a, I grew up with a very film, naive Disney version of what love was. I love that version of love.

Yeah. I love the idea that love was this really romantic, really sweet, writing letters every day kind of love. Like that's the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid at least. And then, you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with the first person you're with in your teens and you kind of think it's the real thing, but then they're in a mood every night for no reason. And you're just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's going on and you think it's all about making that person happy. And so you mold and you

bend and you, you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that that wasn't love. And I think what's really interesting about love now is that marrying my wife, who I've been with now for 12 years and married for nine.

Wow.

And so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone and also the only person I've been with her of my life that I've been with her for. And I really feel she's taught me more about love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of love.

Wow.

At all.

Oh my God. What education did she have?

Yeah, I know, I know. Where can I get it?

I know, literally. And, and the other part is that I think she's the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by, which is like a really interesting part of love that I think is missed.

And I feel like love is the humility to feel it's humility on both parts because the other person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving. So it's this really strange dance between, it's almost like if you're dancing, there has to be humility on both sides because it's not that one person leads and the other person follows. It's the other person's kind of like, should we do this?

Should we try this? There's an anxiety and a humility in requesting that. And the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say, no, we're going to go in this direction. And that's a great dance to watch. And I feel like with my wife, she's never directly taught me, but she's challenged me in ways that if other people would have, I might have left.

Oh my God, how beautiful.

And so why am I staying? And then you go, okay, I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and learning without feeling like you're being led or misled. And that for me has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now, she would just laugh because she'd just find it funny. And then, and then she's, yeah, she, she also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had,

because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men that I'm friends with and that I've spoken to that we want people to respect us for our success and revere us for our accomplishments.

It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a nation. And that's what you were known for.

And so my wife's been with me since before my career took off and I had any success. And I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more.

And she never did. She just didn't do it. And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a, in a, it just didn't make a difference to her.

This isn't why I love you.

Yeah. And, and it took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize, because, you know, those are the times when you could start liking other people who love you for what you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect for

her that. She never gave in on that.

Yeah. She never gave in and she helped me love myself for who I am. And I think that's the point that I think I would have, if I had met someone else, I would have valued myself for very different reasons and knowing you're with someone who truly is with you because of who you are and your character. And that's what they honor. And I think that word honor and respect, probably the last thing I'd say, I think we always say like, love is respect and based on respect, but...

I wrote a list of things that I, I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really looking for and I really want. And one is someone that I can learn from. So it's really interesting that you said, learning without teaching, teaching without learning and that kind of reciprocal.

I really want to be with someone that I can learn from. And I hope that, yeah, as you say, it has the humility to be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is, I think it's why I was so obsessed with the musical, musical Hamilton and why so many people have been, but like, maybe this is so funny that we're on the purpose podcast, but like, are you with someone who, because obviously what you have with someone is, is wonderful, right? Like what you two share together. But if you can be in service of a vision that you both share, or at the very least,

are you willing to honor and give dignity to the work of the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world, that to me seems far more sustainable than anything else.

And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world. Yes, that I'm important, but they also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them too. And in some way intersects with what they're here to do.

I couldn't agree more. That's exactly what I was going to say.

Is it?

Yeah. I think the word respect and relationships thrown around a lot, but this is the deepest form of respect where there's a famous quote that, I don't know who said it, but there's a, and I would, you know, you could take the genders out of it now, but there's a famous quote that says,

men marry women hoping they'll never change. And women marry men hoping they can change them.

And to me, wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of disrespect because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person values in this moment and how that evolves. And that's their purpose, their offering, their values. And at no point are you trying to change them. And I've, I've talked about this often where my wife and I, I do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them, but I've also done it

in our relationship. And I asked people to rank their top three priorities in order and people do it privately and then they share them. And so generally one person will put themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third. And the other person will put the kids first, the partner second and themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first because there's this friction of, well, wait a minute,

how can you not put the kids first? Or how can you not put family first or whatever it may be in your given situation? And the other person's like, well, if I don't put myself first, then what can I give to you all? And that, that kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice. And love means self-sabotage to some degree, or love means putting yourself aside. And the reality is actually, no, my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself.

Yes.

And your purpose is to help me do that. And when we both do that,

everything's possible.

Then it's poetry.

And my wife practiced that and she does it naturally. And it's hard to do that in a world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other person isn't where you are.

Or, you know, the idea of why haven't you had kids yet? Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer than a month? Or whatever they may be, because it doesn't fit into the norm of what relationships look like. And I was thinking about that with you as well. Like, you know, I know you, you talked about how getting asked the question, when are you getting married?

Yeah.

Or why aren't you married yet?

Yes.

And that's something every woman's hearing.

Oh my God.

Well, what's your reaction when you hear that?

I'm just so happy not to be divorced yet. Like, that sounds like a really negative answer, but I think that we're being pressured and forced into this thing that I believe is a kind of miracle.

I might never be worthy of it. I hope it happens to me, but I don't feel entitled to it.

Like, it will either be part of my purpose here and my destiny or it won't. And I think the way we treat it as though, well, why haven't you? And this is something that has to happen in this

certain time span and at a certain age in this kind of way is like the least romantic thing I can possibly think of. Like truly, like if I had tried to get married any point basically before about a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn't know myself well enough yet.

I didn't have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, like how I was going to be of service. I didn't know where I really felt like I needed to be.

I think I have some of those answers now. So when I meet someone, I can say, hi, I'm Emma.

This is what I care about. This is where the people I love the most live. This is where it's meaningful for me to be in the world. And then they can decide whether they can see that there's a way that I can serve what they're trying to do and they can serve what I'm trying to do. But before that, like they would have just got like a very mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent, but there are some parts that like I was really still teasing out and figuring out. And I think it's such a violence and it's such a cruelty

on people and especially young people. I think to me and especially women to make them feel like they have no worth or like they haven't succeeded yet in life because they haven't forced to its culmination something that I just don't think can or should ever be forced. It's something that like,

honestly, I feel like I've had to earn, I've had to work for, to be in a place where I feel like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell them who I am and to have some idea and it will change and grow of what I want and what I'm here to do. That takes work. Like I have like really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions to be

at that point. It hasn't happened to me yet. I do think everyone's worthy of love, but I like, I, and, and I don't think that's what you're saying either. Yeah. I guess maybe like partnership

or marriage, I guess is what we're both saying is like almost a different game. Like it's, it's almost a different playing field actually, like actually co-joining and like properly sharing your life with someone and being in partnership with them seems like it's its own thing.

It is. It takes so much work and it takes so much adjustment and adapting more than compromising and

sacrificing. But there's so much flexibility. There's so much allowing. It's, it's so different at different times. Like sometimes patience looks like being by that person's side and saying nothing.

And sometimes patience means being halfway across the world and not communicating.

Yeah. And sometimes patience looks like, uh, talking and listening. Like, you know, it's, it's patience doesn't look like one thing over a lifespan. And there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And there are parts that have completely changed.

And I have a choice every time that happens to learn to love the new or not. And that's a choice I have to make and she has to make as well. And so there's so much constant choosing and constant evolving that it's very easy to just, it's very easy to be like, yeah, I chose them the day we got married. And people always ask me, I'm like, I don't think I even knew who my wife was the day we got married. Like now when I think about it, it's like, I loved her, but I had no idea. And,

and that's what it should feel like. I don't think if I was here to say like, yeah, the wedding, the wedding day was one of the best days of my life, but it's not the day I loved my wife the most.

Yeah.

Because I didn't really even know what I was getting myself into.

That's amazing. I was thinking recently about trust and telling the truth.

And I realized the scary, crazy thing about, it seems to me about intimacy is that it seems to be conditional on your ability to like, keep telling the truth and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper truths at the risk that that truth might mean that that person might not continue to choose you.

Yes.

So even though you've been in this relationship for 12 years, like every day you have to choose to risk it all. If you want that to be continued intimacy by continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And that seems so courageous to me, like in order for that to be genuine connection and closeness, you have to be willing to risk it all sometimes or like probably almost constantly.

And that it seems like it takes so much courage because we don't like change. We don't want things to change. So you also want a relationship that's alive and still living and breathing and not some like dead thing.

Yeah. So well said. And what you're saying is like that feeling of when you're not actually being truthful consistently, that's when we feel people have had big changes in their life.

Because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the change felt more smooth and gradual. Whereas when the change came like, you know, a wrecking ball where I have this feeling and I'm just telling you it, it's because I didn't tell you about all the little, the little incremental changes. And sometimes you don't know it's even happening. So it's not your fault, or this is not something that you can say has to be the case. But I think that's why being more truthful, more honest, more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual. It's almost like

going back to your dance analogy. Like if you're about to throw someone up in the air and catch them, there has to have been a touch or a preparation before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air. And it's like, well, I would have liked a warning. And that's why your analogy is so good because it's, you would throw someone up in a dance at some point if you were both talented and gifted enough, but there would have been a preparation. There would have been a nod. There would have been a look, a feel, a touch or, you know, to set that up. And I like one of the hardest

questions you talked about asking yourself difficult questions. And I want to ask you something about that. But one thing I've said to my wife is, if you ever fall out of love with me, please tell me, because I don't want to live a day without love.

I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of love and that I want to experience love in my life. If you ever fall out of love with me, just tell me. It's okay.

Because I don't have the desire to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that and extreme, but to me, it's a greater risk to have spent 10 extra years with someone. And then they tell me, I haven't really loved you for the last five, 10 years. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I've lived without love for 10 years of my life. And I don't want to be in that place because I've seen people go through that and not be happy. And so it does come with a humility and a openness to have very difficult conversations and not to force something that, oh, it's been going great for 12

years. It has to. It should do. It must do. And it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if it does, it's great. And it is right now. But why should right now be a prediction for how you feel in 15

years with everything else that's going to change? I think if I knew I really couldn't meet the needs of someone and they couldn't meet my needs, if I really couldn't make them happy and they couldn't make me happy, like forcing them to stay in that situation, it's really that like makes love impossible, like negates. So I, I totally get what you're saying. And my mum said this thing to me, which was like, you want to be with someone because you want them, not because you need them. And I think maybe another reason why I didn't get married younger is because I think maybe I would have married

someone not knowing who I was and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them.

And I think now I have a life that's whole and complete as it is. And I would be making a choice from a place of, I just want you and I don't need you, but I just want you. And I don't, I don't think I was that woman five years ago. Yeah. I love that. And, and, and there's so much,

so much to be said for attracting from a place of peace because you know what peace feels like.

And so then anyone or anything that comes into your life.

And what feeling satisfied feels like.

Satisfied is probably even a better word. And that feeling of, I know what it feels like to be satisfied. And so I now know whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.

I know what my baseline is. If you don't know what your baseline happy is, then how do you, you've got no idea of knowing what's going on at all.

And that's not a feeling of being complete or having it all figured out.

It's like, I know satisfied is a great word. It's like, I know what it feels like to be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself. And now everyone can show me where that pendulum swings. Um, one thing you said, which I, which really resonated with me is that you've had to ask yourself so many hard questions to do the work. And I wanted to ask you what, what's one of the hardest questions you've ever had to ask yourself, if you could recall.

Well, the first one that comes to mind, and then maybe I'll dig for a deeper or different one is like to have to admit to myself or ask myself the question of like, you right now have the career and the life that like, looks like the dream.

But are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are you really happy? Like, is this really what you want? And to be at that point and like, realize and have to admit to myself that I wasn't, and I didn't, was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do. Because, you know, I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis. Like I felt like I was crazy and walking away from something without knowing what you're walking towards was not having the answers, but leaving something that was, that the world

considered to be such of such high value, such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career. I think that was a real, sitting with that was a real moment of reckoning of like, can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most other people, your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable? That was definitely a hard moment of

sitting. More recently, because I've been being my own partner, asking myself, are you really living your values, the things that you preach? Are you actually aligned? And actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, shit, no, not at all. I'm actually not doing what I talk about. And I need to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline for that so that I make sure that I'm a person of integrity. I purport to be someone that cares about the world and about the planet and

sustainability. And, you know, there are some things I was doing. Was it enough? By my own standards, not by anyone else's, just by my own? Probably not. But what's nice is, is I actually have the time now to be like, okay, what are you going to do about it? Get on with it.

But those, those are great. Thank you for those. Those are great questions. Really, really great questions. And so hard for so many reasons, especially when you talked about like, when you're stepping away from and stepping toward, did you have people in the industry or like people that you could talk to that felt the same way? Like, did you have co-stars or friends or?

No. Wow.

No, I don't know anyone else. I'll never say that. I quit acting. I'll always be an actor. I'm still open to doing it again. But I certainly made a decision to, to take time to figure out, to not know and to, you know, I had like this whole

disassembling the structure that's needed to bury the load of Emma Watson. It's like, there's an agent and a publicist and a manager and a, a personal assistant. And there's all these people and lives who are intertwined with mine and navigating and caring for and negotiating that with people as well was like, was really tricky. And I was just bloody terrified. Like, I think there's a kind of infantilization that can happen when you work as much as I did

and a kind of loss of independence. That means that you're like, oh my God, can I even do my life if I don't have this like army of people who are like helping me do the most menial and basic of things? Like, can I actually like do this stuff myself? And, and I don't even say that in terms of like capability, but like just from the place of like, it's difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes. So if I'm going to start to take on truly the responsibility for most of my life,

myself, like what's that going to be like? Like, can I really do that stuff? I think fame makes you feel like you can't do things for yourself in a way that can really disempower you and, and remove your confidence and autonomy as a human being. That's, that's really disabling.

And for everyone who's wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like, should I speak to a publicist? She's like, no, I am my publicist. Like, I was like, do I need to check with the manager? No, I am my manager. And like, that was literally the conversation we had. So she booked this podcast herself. There was no booker. There was no booking system. There was no, there was no reach out. It was literally Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living your values and you are aligned with what you're saying. I wanted

people to know that. Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so funny though now is like, because I do everything myself, there's like a 50% chance you would have not thought it was me.

Or like, sometimes when I reach out to people, I had plenty of moments. I had to double take, I was like, wait a minute, like, verified tick, amount of followers. People think it's not me.

And so like, I have a 50, 50 rate of people actually just like not responding to me because

they don't think I'd be reaching out myself. That's real. I had to do a secondary. I think I wait a minute. Is it definitely her? Is it definitely her? Am I going to turn up in some

like, you know, catfish situation? No, it's wild. Yeah. Oddly, sometimes it takes more work, me trying to do things myself than through the system. Yeah. I know you, you did a great job,

but that, that, yeah, those, those hard questions that you asked yourself, I mean, what was it that gave you courage to walk a path where you don't know the next three steps when you have a entire career lined up on the other side? You have an amazing career. Every movie you've been in has been magical and amazing. Like it's, when you look at your portfolio of choices, like they're all brilliant performances. They're great films that, and you only would have more of that. So it's also

not like you're leaving a career that's kind of had its, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's at a place where no business oriented person could imagine why. And so what gives you courage when one side is so clear and one side is not clear at all? Again, I'm going to tell the honest

version of this story. I'd love to tell you that it was like this incredible courage and determination I have inside of me. And yes, there's, there's part of that. I'm not going to like completely erase my role in all of this, but I think a big part was that it was coming to a point point with my health and nervous system where I was starting to hit a point of not no return,

but like, it's interesting. I eat well, I do yoga, I do medicine, I do all the things, right?

But I think I was using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was under, as opposed to actually what those things are really for are compasses and points towards our truth.

And I was using them as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing myself to continue down a path that actually was kind of wrecking me. And I think it was just like my immune system couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my immune system was so low that I would just constantly be getting, I would just constantly be getting

sick and a sinus infection and whatever else. Like my body just started being like, no, I went from being someone who I would say is still handle stress and pressure well. And in the moment I could always do it. But the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious to the point where it was like, I'd always turned down. I actually remember I was in my early twenties when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker. I was nervous before a carpet and it's the only other time

I ever took anything. And I was fine for the two hours after I took it. And then I got back to the room. And when my feelings came back to me, I was like overwrought with grief and feeling of having blocked it. And so I'd, I'd always, and after that, I, I never allowed anyone to give me anything again, even though I was offered things multiple times and doctors wanting to give me things for jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and oh, everyone takes it. This is, you know, there's no

shame in this or whatever, but I just, I felt like in order to keep going, I was going to have to make a decision of like, are you okay with being low level, unwell and medicated essentially.

And I just knew that wasn't a choice for me. So in a way I have my body to thank because my body just, I didn't want to ignore my body anymore. And it didn't matter how many silent retreats I went on or how much yoga I did or like what new thing I did to try and take care of myself. My body was done.

And that was then I think when I went away and found a relationship with myself and my practice and, and just having trust and faith in a way that I never had before. And I started listening more carefully to like these little whispers of like, oh, like maybe this should be the thing you do.

Or like even coming and doing this of like, I think you should go and do this podcast, just listening to myself for clues basically, and listening to the universe, whatever that means.

But I never had that before. I never had, I never knew how to listen for those things before.

I truly went away and had nothing for a while. So that was probably the best result of all of that.

Yeah. And I, and I think it still takes so much courage because it does, even though you didn't see it that way and you may not have noticed it, it still takes so much courage to listen to your body because it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways to, to break it anyway.

Yeah. And to, to push it to the edges and the limits of its ability.

And because you're so addicted or intoxicated by the success or whatever it may be.

I guess the courageous part was just knowing I didn't want to numb out. That was the point at which it got too big of a cost. Because I was like, okay, if I feel like I need to be,

I'm at the point where the price is too high now.

Hmm. Yeah. I loved what you said about when they're meant to be compassed to our truth and not like this Band-Aid pacification of, and I've been highly, really effectively using

those Band-Aids. They will carry you far. Like I had a lot of practice.

I think that's how they're presented now too. It's become this. And that's why when you said that, I think you, it's almost like, I'm trying to think of a good metaphor, but the one that's coming to my mind, it's almost like driving to the grocery store in a sports car. And it's like a sports car is made for this high speed track. Like that's what it's for.

Yeah.

But you're using it just to drive 25 miles an hour to the grocery store. And it's like, no, it's, it has so much more capability and ability to take you somewhere phenomenally, but you're using it for a really simple, basic task.

Not going to lie though. I remember when I did my first Vipassana and sat long enough and I went to my teacher and I was like, what have I done?

Go on, tell me about this.

Go on.

What have I done?

What do you mean?

In what way?

Because in a way it was almost like I realized once you start paying attention to your truth, it's very difficult to go back. And in some way it felt like, I was like, oh my God, I don't know if I like this. I don't know if I like this. Maybe I want to go back. And once you step through it, you, you kind of can't go back. And I remember him looking at me calmly and saying,

could you even go back now, even if you wanted to? And I was like, I guess not. I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk. And to some degree, in the same way that getting cast as Hermione and like making my peace with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders. I think trusting that is, that's, that's all I can do at this point. I'm just holding on for dear life.

Yeah. It's like the mafia. Like once you're in, you know, too much.

Yeah, it's true.

I'll never forget that moment. I'll never forget that moment. I was like, oh no, this is undoable now, isn't it? And he was like, kind of, yeah. I was like, oh no, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable being honest with myself. And then I have to be honest with other people as well. This is a nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I here?

Oh God.

I'm just imagining you on that Vipassana retreat, like coming out of it and just having that reaction. Yeah.

It's so funny. It's so good. That needs to get added to the play.

Okay.

That moment needs to be added to the play.

I actually, yeah, I wrote something. I wrote something about my doing the, doing the 10 day Vipassana for the first, for the first time. Cause my God, that is such a, it's such a rollercoaster.

Yeah. It's such a rollercoaster.

Anything you want to share about it?

I mean, sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to death.

No, you're not.

I mean, I think what was funny was like, I have this picture that I drew of day, day two and it's like green and pink and there's butterflies on it. And it literally says, I think it says, this is so embarrassing. It says, I am beautiful. It's so embarrassing.

I just felt like, and I was like, oh my God, this is bliss. I was like riding this wave of like meditation, ecstasy, basically whatever dopamine here I was getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable. And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind of like brick wall of, oh my God, like all the things in life that you think are outside of you actually live inside you. And so even when you're like in this beautiful place on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all of these

like wonderful enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy. And even the like salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you start to take on the shapes of your real life.

And you realize that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you, even though there's nothing going on literally. And it was just, it was such a wild experience to kind of sit there and be like, oh my God, I'm the one creating all of my own drama. This is a nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the problem. And, um, I was like, I can't stay here. I can't do this. This is way too hard living with myself and my own thoughts is going to try. This is unbearable. I can't do this. That was a really big

learning. And what I have to remember all the time is like, I, as a perfectionist, which again is a, is a kind of violence on yourself, I would try to like shame and blame myself into and like kind of shake myself up and, and give myself these kinds of like talkings to, to make myself do stuff. And sometimes to be honest with you, they work in the short term and in the long term, they fail you miserably. Like they just do not work. I, the only way that I have learned to change

my patterns to show up for myself better, to change in the ways I want to change and grow is to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was

a massive gift. It's amazing. I love it how someone that you can attend a class with can become such a big teacher for you when you allow it to be. And you know, someone who wasn't the leader or the guide of the group can, can have such an impact on you. Yeah. Did you want to, speaking about love, did you want to share the, is it the practice that you went through recently with, is that what you?

Oh yeah. The ring. Yeah. The ring. Yeah. Oh my God. That's sweet of you to remember I mentioned that.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I, um, I guess having gone through this odyssey, which has been the last, I guess, seven years, I was like, okay, I kind of feel like I've got to a place, and this will continue forever, where I want to celebrate where I ended up after I kind of left land, it felt like. And yeah, I, I did a ritual with, or like, I guess just a day of celebrating with my friends and chosen family.

And they each bought me this ring, which has 22 petals on it. And each of them bought one. And I've just never owned anything so valuable in my life because I, I, to me, it represents the life that I've built, which was the one that I really wanted, which was one that was made up of community and my roots and faith and trust. And in some funny way, it signals to me that

even though I have no outward signs of my success, save for this crazy one woman play I've written, I don't even have my degree yet. And it signals to me that for me, achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself. So that's pretty cool. I love that every time I look down on my finger, I can like see all of the faces of the people who bought it for me. You're amazing at holding space. You're so

kind. The amount of people who've probably sat in this chair and been as emotional as I have, and you don't turn away. It's amazing. It's easy with you. That's very kind. Thank you.

It's really easy because it's really heartfelt. And you've shared so much with me before today and today that felt like you shared, you created that space for me to sit with you before today and today. What makes a real friend? So you said you had 22, 22? 22, yeah. 22 friends. What defines a

good friend for you? Oh my God. For me, I've never killed anyone in my life and I have no intention of killing anyone. But like, it's the person who you can call when you're like, that would help you carry the dead body across the floor. You know what I mean? You're like, the person you call, you're like, shit, I think I've done this thing. And I need you to like, either tell me I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or tell me the truth or help me fix it. Or I don't know that I think it's like the people that, God, it's the people that you just like, do not have to have heirs and graces with

and who you can just be like, this just happened and it's such a disaster. And yeah. And I, I don't know people, I think also who can handle your truths, your real truths and vulnerabilities

like they're sacred and with care. I think that's been very important for me because I think maybe part of my bravado is I'll, I'll make a joke of, or I'll be brave about things I don't feel very brave about. And it takes someone who knows me quite well to go, she's making a joke about this and she's like actually dying inside. And I kind of know that and like, I'm going to hold her through it. Yeah. I think real friends are the ones when you're in a really tight corner and not

just that will like show up begrudgingly, but be like, what are we dealing with today? And like, maybe we'll enjoy that or see that as like an honor and a, and a privilege actually. I think that's been a big learning for me. And it's an honor and a gift when someone asks you for help or when they need you. And I think I used to feel really embarrassed about needing anything from anyone or asking for help. I used to see it as like a great shame, like a, something I was really embarrassed to do. And now I see it as like, I guess like knowing how I feel when someone asks me

for help that I really love and how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else.

I try to remind myself that when I'm feeling like I couldn't possibly burden someone else with something, I remind myself and I do remember how good it felt that someone like asked you to show up for them and that you got to be there for them at their worst or darkest. And so I think coming to understand, like, I think I also confused codependency or like, I don't know, I didn't,

we are so interdependent as a species and like, we, we, there's no shame in, in needing and wanting other people. I didn't, I didn't understand. I didn't understand. And I do. Yeah.

I love that answer. I love how it started as, if I ever kill someone.

Which I wouldn't, I swear. And I haven't. And I won't.

It's so good. It's so good. It's so funny. It's like, I did not expect you to say that.

It was so good. It's so surprising. I love it. But no, it's so, it's so true. Like when I, when I left the monastery and even though I was with my wife and we go into a relationship and we're dating, I used to always feel like I didn't, I always, I had this false mindset because of my immaturity and understand what being a monk was. Yeah.

In that it was in this independent way. Right.

Of not needing or wanting anyone and that we were in a relationship and it was great, but like that wasn't. And I held that immature and I probably verbalized it to her too many times for too long in the beginning of our relationship. I have no idea why she stayed. But it's, uh, it took recently, it was, we, this was so recent. This was like maybe a couple of months ago.

Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said that years ago, but then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes, you're my calm. Like you calm my nervous system.

I was like, you're my joy. Like you bring joy to every part of my life. And it was like, that exchange was so needed and so powerful after having for so long feeling like, oh, I have everything I need anyway. And I do, I genuinely believe that, but it's what you said is that we're interdependent for a reason. Yes.

We could regulate.

My wife had so much. It's like saying, I don't need salt added on to this meal. And like the meal is great. And it's like, I don't need any more salt.

And it's like, well, no, if you add a little bit of salt, it'll make it a bit better.

Way better. And it's like, and we kind of live in that life of like, oh, I don't want to add anything to this. And it's, it's almost a defense mechanism because we're so scared that there may not be someone to add. Oh my God. And I've lived there. So I, that, yeah, that resonated very strongly.

I think that was the, one of the other gifts actually of getting to a point where, because I used to be this, like, I'm so tough and independent and I can do anything person.

And being at the point where I was like, oh, shit, I actually think I'm like, not okay. And my body forcing me to ask other people for help was the biggest gift of my life because it brought me so much closer to other people.

And I learned that not only is it not a burden, it's genuinely, yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes to, to have someone ask you that, ask you that question or like, be honest about the ways that they need you. And it's crazy how long it takes about these things.

Yeah, absolutely. You've done so much inner work and self-work and I'm wondering what's, what's the work you've been avoiding? What's the work you've been putting off?

Wow. I think it's probably something around now tying it all together. I think in some ways me being here today is me trying to do the piece I've been avoiding maybe, which is like, okay, you know, you want to show up as a full integrated whole self and not compartmentalize and split

and fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe. And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very necessary for a long time because I was trying to keep some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then be ready to share those pieces. But I think it's probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I know aren't good for me and that are genuinely just

toxic. But to have the courage to show up now in whatever form that is and trust again, whether that's a person or it's making something or it's kind of, okay, have you learned enough that you can

integrate and share now that you've done this inner work on your own?

Yeah. And that feels, that resonates.

Okay, good.

Yeah, yeah. It's hard, it's hard, it's hard to verbalize.

It's almost like it is that you've been private for so long.

Yeah.

And you've been working in private on your fascinations, your curiosities, your friends, your inner work, and then to actually come out and talk about what that period has been like publicly Yeah.

is something you can keep pushing off.

And maybe how that ties into partnership is that I've realized actually that some of the people people I've been attracting on the dating front think they're dating some previous version of me who I'm, who still exists in some ways, but who isn't actually who I am now. And I realized, I was like, oh, like, I'm still getting sent people who like, are seeing someone who was part of the picture, but,

but not the whole picture. And it's starting to feel uncomfortable to not feel like I'm telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.

Mm. It's even harder for you to be like, well, these are the parts that are still there.

And these are like, it's not a didactic process of like, it's not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I've kept.

Yeah.

These are the parts that are not, like, it doesn't work like that.

No, it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. But I'm still getting requests that want to drag me a little bit more into a version of myself who was great and she was doing great stuff.

But I think there's a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak to you one-on-one in this kind of setting, as opposed to what I used to do, which would be an enormous audience.

And there'd be like 300 people there. And like, of course there's intimacy you can find in a room like that. But like, the truth is, it's really difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind of connections that I know are the ones that nourish me personally. And that's, it's different for everyone, but that just aren't allowing me to have the thing that I know is the real thing that I'm actually seeking. And what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and thinking I'd be able to get and keep, and just not, not being able to find.

Hmm. And it's something I wanted to ask you about that's

difficult and challenging because it's something you spoke about earlier as to being such a big part of your life, an important part of your life. But recently there's been so many conversations and comments directly from JK Rowling, whether it's her saying she'd never forgive you for your views or the fact that when she was asked what ruins the movies for her, she named yourself and some of your co-stars. And I imagine that's an extremely difficult thing when you've been a part of someone's world,

when you felt connected to their work, and then for it now to kind of be a full 180. And for someone to publicly say these things that can be quite extremely hurtful, actually, how do you think about that?

I really don't believe that by having had that experience and holding the love and support and views that I have mean that I can't and don't treasure Joe and the person that I, that I had personal experiences with. I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience of that

person I don't get to keep and cherish. To come back to our earlier thing, I just don't think these things are either or. I think it's my deepest wish that I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me and I hope I can keep loving people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with.

And I think that's a very, very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life.

I just really, I guess I, to circle back around, I really do believe in having conversations and that those are really important and that, I don't know. I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what we say or what we believe, but very often how we say it, that's really important. And that's

really frustrating and not what you want to hear when you're really angry and upset with someone.

Um, but I don't know. I just see this world right now where we seem to be

giving permission for this kind of like throwing out of people or that people are disposable.

And I, I just think that's, I will always think that's wrong. I always, I just believe that no one is, no one, no one's disposable and everyone, as far as possible, whatever the conversation is, should and can be treated with at the very least dignity and respect.

Thank you for challenging us and pushing us. Yeah, it takes a lot to, I think that's what we're all being challenged to do is try and hold two truths at once. And those two truths don't have to be complimentary, but they, they can stand at the same time.

I think the thing I'm most upset about is that a conversation was never made possible.

So you remain open for that dialogue.

Yeah. And I always will. I believe in that. I believe in that completely. Um, I believe in that completely, I just don't, yeah, I just don't want to say anything that like continues to weaponize a really like toxic debate and conversation, which is maybe why I, I don't, well, it is why I don't comment or like continue to comment, not because I don't care about her or about the issue,

but because I just, the way that the conversation is being had feels really painful to me.

And so that's why, that's why that decision.

Yeah. I really, I really appreciate that mindset and

deeply, deeply feel like

if people are challenged to go there themselves, like it takes a lot to think that way and feel that that way, but it's, it's what, it's what healing really requires across, you know, around the world.

And I can't imagine how many young people who look up to you and people who look up to you will feel the same way to, to recognize that that's how we engage. That's what we look for. We, it's, it's not that we're trying to make everything pretty and perfect. No, no, no. It's that we're willing to engage in an uncomfortable conversation. Yes.

It's her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness that, and also honestly, just as a young woman to, for her to have written that character, created that world,

given me an opportunity, which to be honest, barely exists in the history of English literature.

Um, you know, how can I, there's just no world in which I could ever cancel her out or cancel that out for anything. It has to remain true. It is true. And this is where this like holding of these, I just don't know what else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible things together at the same time and just hope maybe they will one day resolve or like co-join themselves and maybe

accept that they never will, but that they can both still be true. And I can love her. I can know she loved me. I can be grateful to her. I can know the things that she said are true. And that can be this whole other thing. And my job feels like to just hold, just to hold all of it. But the bigger thing is just what she's done will never be taken away from me. Hmm. Thanks for saying such a powerful

example. Thank you.

That beautiful F. Scott Fitzgerald quote that the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and still retain the ability to function.

He goes on to say, one should therefore be able to see that the world is hopeless, but still be determined to make it otherwise. And it's like, that's, that's it.

F. Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow. He ran deeper than I knew.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Wow. That's incredible.

No one ever quotes that second part.

That's incredible.

Yeah. It's one of my favorites.

Wow. Well done you for remembering that second part. Wow. You've made me like Fitzgerald a lot.

I mean, I liked him. Don't get me wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, it's my, it's one of my favorite ideas.

Wow. That's so good.

Yeah. It's so good.

That's so good.

Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to stay out of the public eye.

Yeah.

You've still been vocal about causes you believe in, things that you stand for.

Yes.

And that always seems to get attention and reaction.

Mm-hmm.

And so when you shared online your solidarity for Palestine, the former Israeli UN ambassador, Danny Danon, called you an anti-Semite. And his tweet said, 10 points from Gryffindor for being an anti-Semite.

Mm-hmm.

What goes through your mind when you see that?

This happened a few years ago now.

Yeah.

I think what concerned me at the time was the way that that label was being used. And I think even now, I see that playing out where we aren't, people don't feel like they can talk about what's happening safely. This duality created where we don't seem able to care about the victims of terrorism

and care about the genocide that's happening in Palestine at the same time. And both things have to be allowed to be true. You have to be allowed to care about 50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which are children, and care deeply about the victims of this awful terrorist attack.

I appreciate you sharing that. And yeah, it seems like that belief system you have in yes and, and this and, and together, it kind of runs through so many areas of your life.

Yeah.

Personal and beyond.

Yes. I think that's, I think that's true. I think that's true.

I hope that you've felt you've been able to share the parts of yourself and the version of yourself that you wanted to and intended to.

I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel very hot and, uh, I feel a little bit like, is this room even real? Like, are we, is this like a Goddard play where we're like in some sort of existential room that doesn't exist anymore?

In a second all the walls are going to drop.

Honestly, I feel a little bit like that, but as long as this was real and these are, these four walls are actually here, then yes, I do feel that way. And, um, I, or like I've done everything I can in a context that's still, I can still see cameras and lights and I know there's a person behind me, but I feel to the extent to which I, I can humanly do that. I've shown up for myself and for you in a way and the invitation that this podcast is and the work that you do in

the world. I've answered that invitation. So I feel, I feel good about that.

And I've got, I know it's a bit hot, but I've got a couple of questions that we end on with every episode. Um, these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I will probably ignore that rule as I always do. So question number one is, um, we ask these to everyone who's ever been on the show. What is the best advice you've ever heard or

received? I'm going to cheat slightly if you'll allow it. I read Emergent Strategy by Adrian Marie Brown. It was given to me as a gift by my friend Anne Marie for my 30th birthday. And I think that being a good pious Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I worked hard enough and if I was kind of saintly enough that someone would see my good deeds and all of my hard work and like,

give me the sticker, you know, give me the like, give me the star. And so, so a kind of martyrdom was part of my sort of, I understood was important in my, and I think reading her book and reading

about pleasure activism, which is sort of the idea that like anything that you need to, that you want to sustain, e.g. justice, e.g. you need it to be easy and you need it to be pleasurable in a way, because that's what's going to mean that you'll be able to do it for a long time. Part of my burnout was that I wasn't prioritizing pleasure and joy as kind of like underpinning for even some of the

harder, more somber, cerebral things that I was doing. And I think that changed my life.

And I think we also have a model particularly within activism and, um, and lots of spaces that like this kind of sole individual charismatic leader. And I like you, I, you know, I, my heroes always Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and you just saw this sort of like solitary person that was doing that. And I think if I could go back and do anything differently, it would be that when I embarked on some of the public activism that I did, I wouldn't go in the way I did. I would go in with

what I have now, which is not just like an activist community. Like I have friends who can give me feedback and who I can talk to and who I feel that I'm not doing the work alone, solo, however heroic that might look. Yeah. I guess heroism and, and martyrdom the way, the way that it was looked, maybe I just don't believe that's how we'll get the job done anymore. Anything, anything good will get done. So I think that book, and I think that idea that revolutionized my approach.

I love that. Yeah. That's a great answer. It's beautiful. I want to read that book now.

Yeah. I haven't read it. You have to. You should have her on the podcast.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

So much. How long have you got? God, mostly just like, I think a lot of stuff around toughen up, bottle it up, um, deal with that later, you know, just like subtle versions of like, well, maybe tell the truth, but just not all of it. Just maybe like, maybe just like tell like a little bit of it, but not like the whole thing, you know? Cause like the truth is the problem with like telling three quarters of the truth is that then you're sort of in this like constant peeling and unpeeling

of yourself where you sort of like, you're sort of trying to do it, but you're not quite doing it.

And I don't know. I think a lot of advice around that. Also, anyone that tells you not to do what you love, terrible advice, doing what you love will lead you where you need to go. Even if you can't see it at the time. Uh, yeah. Terrible, terrible beauty tips and advice I've given around like,

I don't know, just like, Oh God, all again, like back to our previous conversation, all the ridiculous things that you are encouraged to try and do as a woman, like fake tan. And, and I mean, it's hilarious. I actually right now, I, I, it might be like well covered up, but I accidentally have a bottle of fake tan in my bathroom and in my jet lag state last night, I thought I was putting moisturizer on, but now I have like these like horrific, uh, fake tan marks on my legs and feet.

I guess I'm just thinking about just like, Oh my God. And recently I was like, okay, I want to get my teeth whitened. And I looked like Ross from friends when he'd had that awful fake tanning accident because they were just way too white. And then I had to spend, go back for two other visits to get the dentist to put my teeth back to my normal teeth. So I guess I was just laughing, thinking about like worse advice is just like, don't ever listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do anything weird to your body, face, appearance. Just, just

don't, don't listen. Don't, don't take the bait. Just don't do it.

So good.

Question number three, how are you, how are you now going to choose work projects or activism differently?

Does the person that's asking me to do something with them, uh, can they confidently look at me and say that they care about me far more than like what we're producing? And, and do I care about them that way? One of my favorite people I worked with, Steve Chbosky, uh, I remember him leaving what was a very productive, uh, rehearsal or script meeting with Logan Lerman, Ezra Miller and I, and he was like, I need to go and be with my wife now. And we were like, I don't think I've ever heard. I mean,

at that point I certainly hadn't ever heard a director in my career say they needed to leave for a personal reason or for a personal relationship, but I worked far harder for Steve than I worked for any other director because I think I was able to be a far, give a far more vulnerable performance in that film because I felt that he really cared about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that who, for whom the process is as important as the outcome and the people that

are part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is. I think this is a really difficult thing that I see everywhere in the world right now is that we treat objects and things like they're sacred and we don't treat people like they're the sacred thing and that switch. Yeah. I think it causes a lot

of pain. Emma, something that you told me when we were speaking on the phone was that you've been working with the young people on helping them with some of the challenges that you've faced in your own career in your own life. Yeah. And I remember being so touched by that and I wanted to learn more and for you to share it because I, yeah, I just think it's really special and I was sharing it with some of my your team before you arrived and everyone was quite drawn to it. As a young person and, you know, as I

basically shared over however long it's been that we've been speaking, I just really needed to

be having more conversations with people my own age and people that were older than me. I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems on my own and I just didn't know who to really speak to and I was speaking to such a narrow group of people about what I was trying to navigate and I would just, I think that working with young people and giving them each other and also the space, the reason,

the excuses to talk about the things that we don't talk about or create spaces for has been the most gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I felt in a long time because

it turns out pretty often that a lot of the things that we're struggling with, other people are struggling with as well. And so in a way going back around and trying to put out into the world a lot of the things that I knew I needed as a young person and didn't get, it's been the best most, the best most gratifying thing. And I feel really lucky to be in a position and in a place where I can say a no, like, like I've kind of done this treacherous journey and I think that,

I think I might have some ideas about what might be needed for someone to come out the other side of that safely. So it feels good to be of use. Yeah, I love that. Fifth and final question we ask is to

every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world

had to follow, what would it be? Oh, wow. One law. Okay. There's a couple of contenders.

I'm going to run you through. One is going to be- We'll vote on them.

Okay, great. Perfect. One would be around the importance of telling the truth or like speaking your truth or just because I feel like so much, so much chaos is caused by people not being sure whether or not they should, or it's a good idea to, or I think that would be a pretty amazing one.

Uh, another contender. I mean, it's the obvious one is treat other people as you would like to be treated. That would obviously solve a lot of problems as well.

I like that one you gave. The last one? Yeah. The first one. The first one.

Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth. Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and probably,

probably through doing my yoga teacher training, speaking truth with kindness is one of the first nyamas, right? Very disappointed. I can't remember what the word is in- Not sattva.

Maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with kindness. There's an amazing, there's an amazing quote, which actually

is, is given to me recently by a friend, which is like the truth, the truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without truth is manipulation. Say that again. Truth without kindness is brutality

and kindness without truth is manipulation. And so when I say like, tell your truth, I don't mean going around like just being awful to everyone. Yeah. I mean like telling the microscopic truth and like having those, being willing to have a tolerance for those conversations. One of my favorite metaphors I actually wrote about this recently for being in a relationship with anyone is like you're in, it's in a way it's, it's a dance, it's a fight. Like I think about boxing in the sense of like, who is going to go down to the mat with you and like not tap out because being honest

about what's really going on is uncomfortable and it's risky. As we talked about earlier, you risk every time you tell the truth of maybe losing someone that you love because you don't know how they're going to respond to whatever your truth is. But I think to live that way creates the intimacy and connection that I think we long for and also like sets people free in a way, you and them.

Truth. Yeah. Truth with kindness. I think that's, I think that's going to have to be my choice.

Yeah. My factor of deduction. Yeah. The Bhagavad Gita gives four

principles for truth with kindness. The first is what you speak should be truthful. Yes.

The second is it should be beneficial to all. Ooh.

The third is it shouldn't agitate the minds of others. Wow.

And the fourth is it should be aligned with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom.

That's beautiful and perfect because yeah, I think there's truths which are, if they're not beneficial, that do just agitate. I think that's... And it's not about not saying it,

it's the idea that you've thought so much about how you say it. Yes.

It's not that you've sanitized it because that's the modern day version. The Gita is not telling you to sanitize or be silent. Right. It's telling you to filter your thought. Right.

To make sure that the way you say it is digestible. Yes.

For everyone who's going to hear it and therefore it actually has transformative power. It's not that it's not provocative or that it doesn't, it's just that you're not saying it in a way to trigger or get a reaction. Yeah. You're saying in a way that hits someone like an arrow of truth. Wow.

It goes, I have to change. Wow. Because that person has been so mindful of how they spoke.

Oh my God. That's incredible. That's everything I've just been trying to say about. Yeah. If we, God, if everyone was mindful enough about how they spoke their truth, that it could just go straight to the heart. Oh. Yeah. Rather than hit the ego along the way in the mind. Yeah. Yeah.

That's why we can't talk because everything we say triggers someone's mind or their ego and then everything we say does it back. And so now we're having a mind and ego debate, which isn't the one that goes all the way to tap, you know, in your... We're so focused on defending whatever the thing

is that we feel that we need to defend, that we just can't... Can't hit the heart.

No, you can't hit the heart. So good. Yeah. So good.

Emma, thank you for the longest recorded conversation in on purpose history.

We had to change the cards, the cameras. We had to like, and we haven't paused just so everyone knows. Just so everyone knows. Me and Emma have not moved. So we didn't take a break.

No. There was no bathroom break. No.

There was no break of whatever kind. We both sat. There was no coffee break. We have sat in these seats for the entire duration that you watch this show or listen to it. And so Emma, you have the, you know, to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the award for longest ever podcast

recorded. I don't know whether to be mortified or like seriously embarrassed or, or like think, feel like this is some kind of victory of some kind. I guess we sat here for like, and not moved for more than three hours.

Really? Yeah.

Surely.

It's amazing.

Um, that's amazing. Well, thank you for, thank you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation.

If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable.