The Andre Agassi Interview | Served with Andy Roddick

Hey everyone, welcome to Served. I am Andy. This is a special episode for me personally. We've had a lot of fun over the last 18 months. What was going to be a little side hustle has now become like a thing. It's been amazing. We've had great players. I have yet to sit across from someone who I consider my idol on this show. One of one, but eight-time Grand Slam champion, a tennis icon, my friend, Andre Agassi. Welcome to Served.

Well, what's up? It's so good to be here. Dude, I mean, let me just start off by saying like props to your contribution to the sport through this format because you are not only like thoughtful, you're insightful, and you're fair, and like your takes are, I really enjoy

it. I mean, the sport's better off for it. I'll tell you this. I think my favorite thing, and I've told producer Mike this before, is doing a show and then getting like feedback loops from people I really respect where it's like, you know, we will talk about Zvera's forehand and you'll have this take and I'll have this take and we just start trading barbs. And that I think is like the most fun for me for this entire show is basically it's, you know, a reason for feedback and to kind of engage and get in the weeds on stuff. So we're so pumped to have you. Thanks for carving this out. I know you're going to over to Paris in a couple of days. We're in South Carolina

because you're doing everything. Like I'm reading about like Agassi Sports Entertainment, your partnerships with Julo, with Lifetime, you're the Labor Cup captain. And then after, you know, almost two decades of everyone wanting you to go weigh in on tennis in a formal capacity, you're going to fly over to Paris and start and do the last four days for TNT. It seems like we weren't getting hardly any of you for a long time. And there was this kind of void in our sport and

now we're getting a lot of much and no, your words, not mine. Um, what, what changed? Like, I don't want to ask, why are you back? Why are we lucky to have you back? Fair enough. Thank you for

the way you phrase that too. I mean, those are kind words. I can't say I look at my life in sort of decades because I'm really not the kind of person who maps out anything, but I sort of follow the ripples and, and it was really important to me to stay true to something I promised Steph when we first met, which is like, after she really kind of knew me, it was like, I'm not going to be too busy. I'm not going to be too bored because I'm really dangerous in both scenarios. And, and I think when the kids sort of, you know, that empty nest thing and all of a sudden that chapter, you kind of move into different season in life, I sort of had this bandwidth and, uh, wasn't quite sure kind of

what to do with it. Wasn't stressed about it at all. I found interesting ways to engage. I've always wanted to stay engaged with the sport. Like I've done stuff for people who have been good to the sport, like title sponsors or different things. And I've always tried to be good behind the scenes to the game, but now it's like, I kind of have more bandwidth and, and that's the problem sort of when you commit to something, you can't control the workload because like you do a little bit and then you're, you're in the front of somebody's mind and then you end up doing something else. And it's

just continued work begets work, but I mean, it can't be a surprise to you that you just, I mean, you, you've been so successful. I'd say a lot of us hackers don't have the ability to like choose when to come and go. You've been such an important figure to this game for, for so long. Um, you know, one of its main crossover stars, you can't be surprised that when you decide to come back, that there's work that follows. Well, I don't, I don't see it in context. I think that's

where I probably get a little too much credit from maybe you or, or outsiders in the game. Like I don't have a perspective of myself in context with the game. You know, I try to be as authentic as possible. You can do math. Well in shit times, right. At least it was authentic. So like I, that's how I engage. It's, it's so real time that I'm starting to realize the implications and I'm getting the data now of what choices mean in a whole new arena, but, but I'm comfortable as long as everything's in balance, generally speaking, and you know, it really is. How do you, uh, how do

you feel about going over and working at, at the French open? That's a tough question for a guy like

me. I mean, I think if there's a better question, what are you excited about and what are your stressors? Well, I didn't mean to judge it as better or worse or not a good or bad, but it's, what's tough for me is like, I have my own process when I care about something and I do care about contributing if I choose to do something. And so my stresses are quite honestly doing it, you know, doing it, adding, right. Contributing, not, not, not be, not, not distracting or, or not sort of lowering the bar of any kind. So I want to do it well. And I have my own tortured process in doing

it. It's not, it's not unfamiliar with how I played the game. Uh, so am I looking forward to going and I'm never looking forward to my skin being stretched. I'm there's something I, I begrudge it, you know, like, Oh God, here we go. It's going to hurt. I'm going to stretch my skin.

But then I settled in and then I'm usually glad I did it.

It's funny. Cause we've been, you know, trading some texts about it, or we'll be watching something and we'll start trading. And I can assure you whatever stresses you have about doing it, nobody else has for you. Like, like ask a good question, put you in front of a microphone.

It's never been, it's never been an issue for you, at least not, not to us.

Yeah. Uh, uh, well, uh, here it is all of a sudden, right? I can't even find a word. Just you say that it's a whole different thing when you're, you know, around your peers and you're around the game in such a real way. And it's meant such a significant part of your life, you know, and you've had sort of this big, you know, this, this conflicting relationship with the sport and you've accomplished a lot and you've failed a lot and then you've accomplished a lot and then you're, and then you're gone and then you do something in a whole different arena and then you come back to it. I mean, I could let you inside my head on that level, but it does, it does kind of stress me out. I mean, um, you called me like your, I don't

man, I'm sitting across from you. I was like, so cool. Like we competed against each other.

We, you know, we live the same hamster wheel of life of sorts. And now we get to sit here and bullshit about it. It's like, I mean, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty honored to be here.

That's nice of you. Um, one tournament that I'm in, and obviously it's the time of the year and you're going over to cover it. But one tournament that I kind of want to dive into on, on a little bit of a deeper level is, is your run at Roland Garros in 99. Right. And I felt like it was, you automatically, anything you want to share

before we get to do it? I know just that I should have lost that tournament four times,

but yeah. So, but it was, it was an interesting kind of inflection point in your career. Uh, you might say you were, you, you come back from playing challengers. 98 was fine, but not by your standards. Fine. Right. And then, you know, 99, I talked to BG. He said you hadn't played tennis in like seven or eight days going in. You hit the ground before, uh, you mentioned, uh, you lost like three or four times you were down, you know, a set and setting something to Squilari and then four,

four, one, and then two points away against Clamont. Two sets. The one down four or five, below 30, it's a winner. And they called it out by getting an overrule. That would have been triple match point. He ends up cramping in a 12 deuce game, the next game. And I beat him six. So in the fifth Moya six, four, four, one, two breaks. Yep. And then you get her body who you'd lost to in

Miami, you know, two months before. And then the final, I mean, but let's, let's, let's level set the historical context of, of this tournament. Any grand slam for any player is the most important thing you're doing up to that point. Right. It's just, they all take on kind of their own thing. Looking back and you can say, you can, we can be objective. I wasn't ready for that one.

I was ready for this one. This is what happened there, but I wasn't actually able to be super objective going in. I was in the business of lying to myself. I'm ready. I can do this. I can win this.

Yeah. Whatever it, uh, might be, but that one specifically, it was for the career grand slam for the career golden grand slam. You hadn't been in a semi in a major since 96, I think at the U S open, there was something that needed to happen to kind of rejuvenate your career on the level that you

knew. Right. Yeah. No question. So, um, yeah, 97, I went from which the year before don't underestimate how tough this was. You say it was average. And it was from a grand slam performance perspective, but I went from one 41 in the world to number six. No, it was a joke. I mean, yeah, that, but that, that wasn't because I was doing well in big tournaments. That's because I made up my mind that I need to climb back from one of the lowest points in my, in my, in my life. And, and I just went after it with full intensity week after week after week, you know, small tournament, big,

didn't matter. I was just, I lost round of 16 pretty much in every slam, if not earlier. Um, and then I start 99 and it's like, you have those, now your questions go at one 41 in the world.

Your questions are, can I really even do this anymore? Then you get to number six in the world and then you're confronted with, well, I can, but I haven't been here in years. So now I had this whole nother level of intensity and pressure to deal with. And I was, and I kind of failed miserably at it. Right. Like, like I went into the 99 Australian open and, and had a real curve thrown at me with my like first wife at the time, but we can skip over that if we want. Uh, and, and it was like, I just, I tapped out mentally. Um, and again, had an early loss and I went, I got a shoulder injury.

I went to the clay season, not having a good hardcore season, lost first round to keep us gain. So for me and the way my game was maybe a bit like you, I don't, I don't know, but like, I felt like if I don't do well in the hardcore season, it really had a monstrous effect on, on, on my whole year. Cause I did not expect to do well on clay. So I went over to Europe for the clay.

It wasn't fantastic, had a shoulder injury. Didn't even think I was going to play Paris.

Um, it was the last four of the four grand slams for me to win. Um, it was one I should have. Well, when I say should have, it's been represented that I should have, I was, was favored twice in the finals, almost a decade earlier, 90 and 91. Yeah. So it's like, I was, I was out there going, I'll never have a chance to win this thing. Anyhow, why even play it? And, and my coach at the time, who's yours for a while, Brad, I'll never forget his comment to me. He goes, dude, he goes like, how can you win the French if you don't play? That was, that's how he simplified it.

Like big concepts, just dubbing adaptive where it's like, Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So I was like, so I really was looking at 99 French open as a way for me to grind out some sets, maybe grind out some matches, but be ready for the rest of the year where maybe I could do something. So that was a context I went, went in there with. Talk about that. Cause

I did, I did make it too easy. I'm like every, like everything I hate about media, but one 41 flipping your own scorecards, the infamous challenger in Vegas that we all remember where you're flipping your own Naomi referenced it a month ago. Cause she was kind of doing the same thing. Uh, definitely a point for, you know, inspiration for like, it's possible, you know,

Andre had some, some humble pie. I can do this too. Right. Like the, and I say that in the most

flattering way, but then one 41 to six. Now it's important to kind of point out how we have to reframe things in our mind continuously as tennis players. If you're sitting at one 41 and someone tells you you're going to be six, I don't know the number, 14, 15 months later, whatever it would, whatever it might be, you're going great done. That's the best. And then you get there and it's like, there's, there's more, there's always this kind of fight of more. And you, you like, once you're six, you almost forget about the one 41, right? Like you're just kind of only as good as your last result. Yeah. Like, but it's people don't see, they see the numbers

and they know the talent. They know what they've seen from you before. So in a way we don't give

enough credit in real time. Right. It's true. I mean, I always kind of look at it like we as tennis players are a car uphill with no brakes, like in our own minds. Right. It's like, and sometimes we forget that, you know, you can't, you know, you can give yourself a little bit of a break if it's, if, if you design it into your overall methodology or your overall game plan. But if you don't do that, you end up getting sucked in that vortex of like torture perfectionism.

Cause you're always fighting a ghost. You're fighting something better than you are right now. And that's, that's what I was, that's, if somebody told me at one 41, I was going to

get to number six, I signed me up. I'm happy. You would have said I'm happy forever. And then

it comes and it's not the case. No, it's never the case, but that's the, the, the shit part for me with tennis was always that it was like winning and then having to prove it again next week. But the flip side is losing and then getting a chance right to the next week.

So it's like anything in life, it's perspective. Yeah. And unfortunately it's 10, we usually don't have it cause we're so damn young too. Right. I mean, it's another thing to consider.

Yeah. So you, you find, you find your way to that final and you're playing and this, this was, this is, this is a way to show kind of the human side of you that I think people hear about and know, I certainly experienced it. I have firsthand stories that I I'll tell later, but you end up playing a guy named Andre Medvedev, who was a really good player. One Monte Carlo, I think when he was really young, was four in the world. It was kind of the guy that people were pointing to as like that next guy. And then he just kind of, he was really good, but maybe not great. Right. And you had had a conversation with him at the beginning of 14 days, practice week of

the, uh, of the French open Monte Carlo week, actually. Oh, it was, it was before the French open walk us through what happened and then like how, you know, tennis does its magic. And then all of a sudden you guys are battling for, you know, an important title. So, uh, I don't know what the

rules are now at tennis, but back then, if you're going to pull out of an event for medical reasons or whatever, you know, to avoid fines and penalties with rankings, you got to kind of see the doctor on site. I was going over there to honestly, to pulling out of, uh, Monte Carlo just to just cause I wasn't playing it. So Andre Medvedev was playing Monte Carlo and lost. And so we both looked at that night the same way. I'm in Monte Carlo. I have nothing else to do. I'm going out.

He's in Monte Carlo. He has lost. He has nothing else to do. He's going out. So we were out at this, like, it was kind of like a dinner that transforms into a nightclub kind of place. And we're already deep into the nightclub side of things, just sitting there and just, I'm just, I'm just basically waiting for my flight the next day. And he sits down. I was like, Oh dude, what are you doing? Are you playing here? He goes, yeah, he lost today. He goes, I lost today. And I'm like, you know, bad luck. And he goes, nah, it's not bad luck. I just suck. You know? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, so he starts, he starts walking me through his head, right? Where he's at,

he's going to quit tennis. And I'm like, dude, you just, you can't do that. I mean, he goes, why not? I said, well, first of all, you can't quit because changing that scenery is not going to change you quitting on yourself. So that ain't happening. So just get that out of your head. You got to ask yourself what is, what's it take to make you better? And, and, and the first question I have for you is like, why do you think you suck when you can do this, this, this, this, and this? Like, like, like what's going on, you know? And so I kind of became weird for this like stretch of

an hour. I became like this coach to him, you know, just personal coach. Like, dude, get your head out of your ass and use the strengths of your game. And the only weakness you have, you can get around multiple ways. And, and he was like, I mean, he hugged me afterwards and just said, thank you, you know? And sure enough, here comes 99 French open and a draw. And like, we were always playing on opposite days. So I, I, he would see me and he'd come over and be like, man, go get him today.

And I'm like, yeah, well done yesterday. And then I'd see him the next day. And I'm like, you know, it's your turn. Get out there.

At what point does that start getting real for you too?

Oh shit. That got real, real, like, like quarterfinals. Like I'm going, I look at him, I'm thinking to myself, you looked a lot nicer to me, like a week ago.

I didn't think it would actually work.

No, I know. And he just starts laying wood to everybody and semifinals. Here we are. It's like a collision course. And it's like poetic, like, like, I mean, how the irony of it that I'm playing my greatest opponent ever, Andre, like my, my mind, I'm thinking myself, right?

I'm playing my, I coach, I literally coached this guy how to not only beat the people he was bitching about, but how to beat me. Right. And it's like, and here we are playing my biggest match ever against each other. It was just, yeah, it was just a little too much to emotionally kind of process. I was, I not only nervous, I was kind of scared out of my mind to be quite honest.

And then you get down the only cloud in Paris that day finds you for, I don't know, 40 minutes, something like that. Brad yells at you a little bit. Gil gives you a pat on the back.

And you go out, find your game, lose a second set, come back from two sets to love in a grand slam final.

It was worse than that. The first two sets were gone in 47 minutes. I mean, you don't know what it's like to lose in 47 minutes. Cause you can hold serve, right? Like when you lose your way as a guy that played like the way I've lost to you three and one before,

like that, that was about four. That was about 56 minutes. So if I can't relate to 47, I can relate to 56.

That was San Jose. Do you know, I actually issued four times in a row that day. It's the only time I've ever done it.

No, you've told me.

Oh, okay.

Sorry. So what was, what would help? We were just talking about just walk us through basically coming back 47. So this was my point in a grand, there's one thing to be in a grand slam final and lose. And I've done that plenty of times. The first three ever played, I did that lost many more, you know, and it's a feeling of heartbreak. Like, I'm not sure if I'd rather lose in the finals or lose first round. Cause then at least I can turn my mind towards like, I can use this time back to that tortured perfectionist kind of tennis player mentality.

You lose in a finals. It's just like, like you're leaving a loser. Like that's how, that's how he's like, I won six, lost one. And somehow like the heartbreak. Right. So I go out in that tennis court and it was like 47 minutes, two sets down. And it was so bad. I actually looked at the crowd and absorbed it and just said to myself, you can't do this to them. I mean, you got to give them a match somehow, some way. My feeling was one of empathy for the people watching this train wreck, right?

This, I mean, this natural disaster take place in front of them. I mean, this absolute carnage, right? I'm dragging people to my funeral for God's sake. And it's like, and then the rains came. And when that rain cloud came, I didn't, I thought it was just delaying the, the, the beat down. It's just, but at least the clock might move and at least the historical scorecard, it's going to say the match lasted an hour and 40 minutes now. Right. But we get into the locker room and as you know, and anytime you want to feel free to interrupt me on this, but you know what it's like when you got

128 guys in the draw doubles mixed. Right. And you got just, just a guy's locker room. Yeah.

And then it's like deathly silent and there's two people and it's a rain delay. And like, you know, you can hear the other one breathe in there and Brad comes in and he just, I mean, he just lost his

mind with me, which isn't his, he doesn't, he's not a yellow. No, he's not a screamer. Like that's for the listeners who wonder, I mean, they've seen our episodes, but he doesn't like never screamed at me. And I probably, I'm sure I give him many, many reasons to not a yellow. No, not a yellow at

all. I mean, but I was, I didn't even, I couldn't eat that more. I was so nervous. It was my feet were, I was a deer in headlights. Right. So he had to slap me out of it. And he's, and I just looked at him and I was like, what, I mean, this guy's like, he's like too good. And he goes, how the F would you know if this guy's too good? You, you, you, you, you're not even, you're not even moving. You're not even like, you're not, you're not even hitting the ball. Like this, like I, here's an idea. If he hits the ball over there, why don't you run? Right. He starts giving me like this, he goes,

no, right. You can picture him doing this. It's a good start to be fair. I mean, yeah, but he, this was after he slammed the locker. Yeah. I mean, that's so dry. Like I can't even imagine Brad doing that. Yeah. Yeah. He'd lost his mind. And then he said to me, and by the way, if you're so confused on where to hit the ball, you know, wherever he is, hit it the other direction. Right. He's just like, but for God's sake, how can you tell me this guy's too good? If, if you're not even doing anything, I just like, let's go down swinging. We've been here for, you know, almost 20 days and you've been laying it on the line. You've been leaving your heart out there. I mean, he gave me one

of the talks that just, and then I was still convinced heading back on the court. I was just now going to lose different. I was just going to lose on my terms and just start scorching the ball.

But in any case, I, it was probably the only time in my life where I was so disconnected emotionally and mentally from what was, from where I wanted to be on the court that I found myself like gathering my senses, sort of digging in and then getting over the hump and then playing in what athletes kind of call the zone. Right. Like I've never, I've gone out there in the zone. I've lost the zone.

I've never gone from like Mars to like the zone. Like, and it happened in the one, in the biggest

match of my career. How much of that match, the deer in headlights. And I know we're, we're making it about Medvedev for this conversation as it should be. How much of that was from, and you mentioned it a little bit before you go in your first grand slam in 90 and you're playing Gomez, you're the favorite and it doesn't go your way. The next year against Jim, it doesn't go your way. You go into 99.

It's a tournament at that point where your game had kind of shifted to where you were probably better on other surfaces, right? Whereas early in your career, maybe that was your better surface.

Was there a sense of this is it, I have to do it now.

I had the curse of knowing too much at that age, right? And being at the end of myself in 97, where I was sitting in my living room, you know, self-inflicting harm and just going from one to 141. So I had the luxury or the curse of, of just knowing too much. I knew I'd never have another chance at this. I knew I probably didn't even deserve this chance at this. You know, that was the real fight inside of me is how, how do you, how do you get, I think that's why nerves come in in any sport. You see golfers as

they get older, something happens to their, to their, you know, they just, they know what saving a five foot par putt means, even though it's the middle of the third round, right? It's like, they know it. They've just lived it too many times. I knew what this opportunity was. I knew how important it was that I don't waste it. But at the same time, you're handing me like a suicide pill, right? And I could just, I could just take it and go home. Like that's how I felt. It's like, so I was petrified and I was, I was just dying in front of everybody. So it was, it was, it was a hard deal. I kind of wish I was young and naive and, and just letting it fly. But I lost to, to,

to, to Gomez where I was favored in the finals of French. I then went to the U S open 1990 lost where I was big time favorite. He was like, like, who's this guy? He's seated 12. Yeah. And then I went back to the French against Courier. So that, that feeling is, is an intense one. I even told Jim in 93, when he beat me in the semis or 90, yeah, 93 beat me in the semis. And then he beat court in the finals. That was 92. 92, 92. I told him in 92, after he beat court, he came in the locker

room at Wimbledon and, you know, respectfully went over to congratulate him. But I added this little bit, which is like, like respect for just being favored and just going out there and just like taking care of business. Like I, I'm, I admired that because it was so not who I was. And it was, he was so able just to go to work, you know, and I was so unable to do that.

It's interesting. Cause that leads me into kind of another conversation. I have these, I'm going to move order here, but 88, make a couple semifinals of the only two grand slams you played. You didn't play Australia cause apparently you didn't like the conditions down there.

I only missed, I only missed 10 of them.

You'd have ripped off four out of five, but yeah, you might, you just life advice. Maybe you should have played those.

So, I mean, it's just more, I'm not that insecure. I'm not like my wife, for God's sake,

who is so insecure multiple times.

So insecure, not just beautifully humble. Three in the world, you've become world famous, right? You've, you've basically taken the sport that Mac and Connors have, you know, kind of lifted into the mainstream, but then even taken it a step further. There's every ad campaign that comes. So you're more famous than people who have won a lot more at that point. And then I've always wondered, and especially as we, you know, Americans were playing against Americans, but then like a story that doesn't get talked about ever now. And it did at the time, you know,

history is easy when it works out for everyone. Chang comes in and wins out of nowhere in 89, when he's 17, you know, and then, uh, we mentioned, uh, Pete in 1990 over you comes out of nowhere wins. Then Jim beats you in a final in 91. And then all of a sudden we're sitting here in 92 and these three guys have won and you haven't yet. And you were kind of the first one that was actually burdened with, with, with the expectations to kind of continue on with, uh, you know, Mac and, and Connors and that whole, that whole deal. Is that something that, that you thought

about it? Was it important to you? Did it matter that they were Americans? Did you care about other people's expectations? Were you aware? What was the fame versus not winning dynamic? Like what was

that whole kind of four years? Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a lot right there. Let me start with this.

It's like, it's like the Peloton, right? You got four guys, right? You have to work together. You have to, you have to help each other believe they can win also too, right? Like I helped them believe that we can do it. I turned pro first and I was actually succeeding, you know, really succeeding on some level, you know, that made them believe, well, well then I can do it. Right. And then like chain comes in and says, well, I can win a slam, you know, wins it. And then like Pete's like, well, I can do that too. Then Jim's like, well, I can not only win a slam, I can be number one. And

meanwhile, like, yeah, I definitely went from leading to, you know, second place in the, in the Peloton to like third to like fourth and then just fighting to keep drafts. Right. I'm just like, just trying to not let everybody run away, but I was coming off a generation where Americans didn't, they didn't really, I mean, besides maybe Vetus and Mac, but Vetus is never competing for number one in the world. Connors and Mac never really got along. Right. And then, you know, like me, Pete, Curry or Chang, I don't think there's anything more classic than watching us on the same Davis

cup team, you know, like the dinner room becomes like a Fellini movie. It's, it's like, it's crazy.

Everybody sort of has their own thing and it's so individual. And it's so like, we're trying to be a team pretending like we're a team, but we just really want to be better than you. Cause if we're better than you, then I'm, that means I'm number one. And then you throw Mac in the mix, who was still a factor. Right. It was just, it was, it was crazy, but that's why I envied your generation so much.

Right. I mean, like I looked at you and Marty and John and Eisner and, you know, the Bryans and, and, and others that you guys, like, you guys were like, you're like the Aussies or like the French or like, you know, you guys actually went out and sat in the other one's box and supported them during the match. You know, it was like, you guys were like, I, like, I never experienced that.

Me, Pete, Jim, Chang, we're fighting to be number one in the world at the other one's demise.

So you always felt that edge. And so what did it do to me in real time? As they started achieving way more than me, it made me feel worse about myself, quite frankly. And that, that, that heat and that pressure was two folds, right? It was, it was burdensome, but it was also a sneaky

accelerant. It was a sneaky motor. It was a sneaky, like, cause you know, I, I've always sort of have fought tennis like an underdog. It's the way I was raised, you know, it was circumstances I had to go against and, and they just, they just raised the stakes and, you know, in some strange way I used it. And you were obviously always going to win your first major at Wimbledon.

So that was a given. Yeah.

But walk us through, like, it's just, there's so many parts of your stories that are, or that of your story that just don't make a lot of sense. Right. And then you start putting in the human element and you start layering over, you know, certain factors in life. And then in it, in it, it kind of makes sense at some point, but you got to kind of dig a little bit.

Like you played in 87, you didn't play Wimbledon for four years during this whole upswing of, of, of fame and success. And the whole, you know, Jean Short, Moulet, the whole, the whole, the whole deal. You didn't play Wimbledon again until 91, took four years off. Then you come out and win in 92. Like, how does your brain click to where you're obviously not playing it because you think you're, I'm, I'm, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but obviously they make me wear stuff I don't want to wear. And I'm a baseliner. Like all these guys are hitting bombs and coming in and correct me where I'm wrong. But then when do you feel like, Oh,

you know what? Not only should I play it, I should, I can, I think I can win it.

Like that's a, that's a, that's a fucking lifetime of, of mental gymnastics for most. And it seems like you're able to like, once you can get it in your grasp, then you feel like you can actually

wrestle with it. Right. Yeah. What is that process? I've been known to be the person that paints myself in the corner in order to, you know, find a way out. I mean, um, let's, let's, let's get to the heart of it. Right. I mean, cause you're saying, how do you make sense of it? I never chose tennis. Right. I, from day one, from day one, right. News alert, most controversial, controversial thing in my book came on page one that I hated tennis. All right. Now that's not, I'm not making that up. Like I saw what it did to my family. I saw what it did to relationships. I, I, it just,

it always meant too much. I always resented it. Right. It didn't mean that I wasn't good at it, but you can be motivated through two things in your life, fear or love. And it was fear that was driving me. Right. It's fear of my father, last of youngest of four children. It was just fight, get sent away from home, Nick voluntary tennis Academy. It was like, and it's like Lord of the flies with four hands and backhands. I mean, teenagers raising each other, no adult supervision, this place is of hell. I want to burn it down. I mean, like rebellion kicked in at the age of 13, told my dad to piss off basically by then too. Right. Like, I'm, I mean, when I tell you I'm

living a real life rebellion and my anger is directed at tennis, misdirected, but nevertheless directed at tennis. I mean, rage is an interesting thing, you know, and I chose to use my intuitiveness and my resentment of tennis. And that rage is something that I knew I didn't want to ever use to hurt people. So I, I had to direct it somewhere. So I directed it, you know, at the easiest thing in front of me, the thing that was responsible for the misery of my whole life at the time, which I concluded was tennis. And so getting out of the Academy was about survival. It was about if I,

here's how I can get out, win, you know, win like just, okay, now I'm pro and now I'm out in this man's world with this teenage rebellion. And then everybody's telling me, sticking microphones in my face, asking me who I am, asking me to make sense of why I'm wearing jean shorts.

Well, I'm wearing jean shorts because it's a big fuck you to the whole world. It's like, that's how I felt at the time. It's a reality. Right. And it's like, so there was this, there's this push pool that was always going on in my decision-making. I didn't play Wimbledon because I felt like I was playing in a giant like dollhouse. I mean, it's like on Bambi on ice.

It's like grass. I mean, I mean, you could tell me to smoke this stuff and I understand it, but to play on it, I mean, like how do you play, how do you play on, how do you play on this surface? You can't even stand on, I didn't even get to practice it. They treat you like a stranger in your own club. And I mean, it's like in your own tournament and it's like, you're not seated.

You can't go over there. Right. And you can't practice at Wimbledon because I'm 16 years old going, you know, anti-establishment, anti-everybody. It's like, and I'm in a man's world trying to pay bills. Right. So it's like traveling the world with my brother, just not being begrudged in the locker room. At least that's my perception, but nevertheless, I start to then not go to the locker room, which makes them think I'm begrudging my peers. And then it's just, everything was just compounding, compounding. So my whole life has been about, I didn't play, I didn't play Australia

because I didn't, I wanted something normal and that's called Christmas and that's called New Year's. I mean, that's how simple it was. That's as simple as you just, that was, that was it.

Oh, as little as I could play and get away with it. I was, I was thrilled.

It's amazing to me though. And then we'll, we'll get back on topic. Cause I think that 90, I, I like, I remember it's so funny. Cause like your matches, I remember where I was for them, like the biggest ones. Like I remember I was at 92 Wimbledon finals at Jeff Lau's house and we were playing ping pong. And then we were like, and we, we sat there as, you know, nine-year-olds at the time and, and, and, and kind of dialed it in. And then he misses the volley and you go down. It's like, I think even at that point I understood like the weight of expectation and pressure and the release

valve and accomplishment and the whole thing. I get asked about your quote a lot about the, I hate tennis, you know, what does he, and I'm going, yeah, I mean, it's, it's his truth. It's his reality. But I also know that he spent a lifetime perfecting a craft, appreciating the, the winds of tennis, appreciating tennises as a, as a teacher. So has it changed in your mind from obviously when you're 16, you're playing against something I used to not want to lose. Cause my parents would be mad

at me. Like that changes when you're 25, right? Like that's a very different scenario. Like how is, how did your relationship change as you got older and maybe accomplish some goals to where there wasn't that thing that you had to do anymore? Well, like I hear you talk about it. I'm like,

this person loves the game. Well, so it's not a, when did I go from love, hate to hate love? And I think that happened. I think that happened probably in the fall of 1997. I was at my lowest point. I've fallen from number one in the world. Um, I was doing crystal meth. All right. I mean, let's talk real terms here for God's sake. Right? Like, like I'm, I'm doing one of the most addictive drugs, recreational drugs in that, that exists. I'm, I'm trying to harm myself. I mean, like I hated my life.

I hated it because I didn't know who I was. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't choose it. Was there a contradiction in, in the good that came with it? Yeah. When I, you know, bought a house for my parents and I bought another house for so-and-so and I got, you know, you, you have these, these contradictions that I had to reconcile, but I couldn't reconcile it until I went full circle, you know, and full circle meant getting to the end of myself. It meant staring across that abyss. It

a gust of wind will blow you off the edge. You know, it's like, like, like, you want to talk about Rio is going to Stuttgart, getting a wild card. Cause I'm 141 in the world. Cause I can still sell tickets, but I can't hit a damn tennis ball and I'm overweight. You know, it's like I lose first round, Brad, always Brad to simplify things. You know, it's like in the hotel room, locks the door and says, you know, dude, like I care about you too much. And like, you got to quit or, or we got to start over. I mean, and I never hated tennis more than that moment. If you can believe it,

because it's like, if Brad lost hope in me, I mean, Brad, right. I'm down two sets of love at the French and he's going, what's the matter with you? You got it right where you want him. You might, you might just believe him. Yeah. No, no question about it. And here he was just going, I'm like, I'm going to walk like, and I think you might need to walk too. You know, it's like, and I just never remember. And then I remember looking out, it was like the epiphany and, and mind you, and you're, you're way too smart for this. So I'll say it up front. Epiphanies don't change your life, but what you do with them can. And that moment I had an epiphany. It was, the epiphany was

just because I didn't choose my life doesn't mean I can't take ownership of it. Just because I didn't choose my life doesn't mean I can't choose to choose it. Right. Like it was this abstract intangibles, like, like hope is fragile and hard to kill, you know, like I'm sitting there with no more hope, but there's a glimmer, right? Like there's a glimmer. Like if I feel like a piece of shit, well, isn't that a good, like growing ground for a seed? Like maybe something can grow out of this. Like it's just like, it's like, it's like hope is hard to kill. And I held onto that epiphany and I held

onto it. And I, I spent the next couple of months trying to figure out what my reason was going to be to use obviously a gift that I had and a life that in a lot of ways gave me so much, but, but in a lot of ways it took so much, right? Like my childhood and like, right. So again, perspective. And I saw the show on 60 minutes, it was a KIP program, knowledge is power program. It's a charter school operator. And I watched these two guys, Dave Levin, Michael Feinberg, and they were educating these

children in the most economically challenged areas. And they were empowering them and changing the trajectory of their lives. And I remember watching those kids and I saw myself, you know, like,

oh man, I saw myself. I said, you know, maybe that is my reason right there. Like those kids don't have the luxury about bitching about being number one in the world. Right. It's like, like that's when I committed to like building my own charter school. I took out a $40 million mortgage, a $40 million mortgage. Ambien is no match for a $40 million mortgage. And I built my own charter school when I was 141 in the world, because you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to use tennis. Like it's used

me, right? I had to, I had, I didn't have a choice, but I had my reason, right? I had my reason. My reason was something that I was connected to, but was much larger than me. And that's why I would have always been a better team player. If I was a team sport player, if I had any athletic ability, you know, it's like I was connected to my team and it was like, I was on a court and all of a sudden it looked different. People are saying, I'm playing the challenger footman scorecard. I don't know how Naomi sees that. I can tell you how I see it. Like people said, like he's humbled and no, no, no,

that's not humble. Humble smoking meth in your living room. That's what humble is being out here, having your reason for what you're doing. That's called, that's called grace. I mean, that's just called a gift. And I had that the rest of my career. So when did that epiphany, when did that change go from, you know, love, hate to hate love? I would say it went that fall of 1997.

So we met in 2000. Okay. And so at that point you'd had, you know, 97 has happened. You've had this run of Roland Garros and the U S open and all this other stuff. And I kind of found myself in, uh, you know, the next lane of a swimming meet sometimes where I could draft sometimes. And you would use me if you needed a body to play an XO somewhere. And I got to fly with you and I got to see how you operated and I got to, you know, see the way that you lived and I see the way that

you process the game, see the way that your, your mind worked about the game. And so from where I sat, I only saw the part where, where you had gone through all of this, this, this torment, but that was, I was 17 also. So what I'm seeing is basically my reality at that point, right? There's no retrospective when you're 17. So ever since I've known you, it's, it's like this obsession, which, which presents outwardly as, as, as love for the game. So I don't know the back. I haven't lived your reality. I'm just saying from where I sit and when we had a personal relationship and when I was

close to you, I would see you, we would go play Birmingham. Yeah. And I would see the way that you would interact with the, with 12,000 people there and treat them as if this wasn't, you know, the 478th one night exhibition that you had done in the last 10 years. Right. And so that was love to me. Uh, and it was going, going into whoever the sponsor, it's a local car dealership. And then I'm making these parts up, but the sentiment is truth. We go in and it's a local car dealership and I'm seeing you off the phone when you're foundation talking, handling life around, we get to the,

the venue and it's simple things like you asking someone the way and Hey, you know, sponsor, I know remind me of, of, of his first name. And also I know the last name cause it's on the dealership, but who's what's his wife's first name also. And you walk in and it's a group full of people who don't see live tennis all the time. They're not, they know you, they don't know me. And we walk in and it's, you know, Tommy and Buffy, thank you for your hospitality and the room melts and that's love. And so anything that I've seen of you with my own eyeballs has come across as love with this

game without the baggage. So I don't say that for a response for you. I say that it's admirable that you've taken this thing that caused you pain and caused you torment and caused you family issues.

And without you knowing it as a 17 year old coming up, it presents as complete and total love. And so that's where, when I hear it and people ask me about it, I'm completely confused by it. Not to say that's not your reality. Not to say I like, I know your history backwards, right? I've read about it. I've, you did me the favor, uh, one of the coolest things. And I think I've told you about it before, but when your book was going to come out, obviously, by the way, it's my favorite book I've ever read because I feel like there's two things that great former athletes do. They either write a greatest hits album or they throw everyone else under the

bus. You put a magnifying glass on the things that weren't your greatest hits while throwing yourself under the bus. So it was raw. It was authentic. You had been retired for a couple of years at the time. Um, I think it came out in 08, right? Uh, maybe I've read it. Oh, first year of our relationship. But, uh, I remember you called me and said, Hey, I'm sending you this book. Don't give it to anyone. Don't let anyone read it. I'm not sending this to you

so that I can coach you on a response. I'm sending it to you so that if you have any questions, feel free to ask me, there's a lot of shit in there. And I remember I read it. I didn't, I think you understood the product. Like if this book comes out and then I get asked about it in a press conference and I haven't read it yet or whatever, then I don't know how to respond.

That was a very nice gesture. Um, which I appreciated my wife read the book and we were still early days. It was probably the first year. Um, maybe we had just gotten engaged or something.

She read the book. She's crying. She goes, I feel like I understand your universe better from having read, uh, your book. Like it had, it has to, I mean, that's love to like basically telling your story to where other people understand, like creating like a lever for, for communication. It had an impact, not just on me because you know, I admired you and I did all the bad fashion choices right along with you. My apologies. But anyway, yeah, geez. Uh, we overpaid for him though. So that was good. Um, but there, there is like a lever and that presents as love. So it's, it's, it's not me telling you that

what you're saying isn't true. That's the last thing I'd ever tell you. I'm saying from what I saw with my own eyeballs, it presented very differently. I've, I accept it. I appreciate it.

That matters to me. Um, it's, and it's reflective of, of this. It's because of the baggage. It's because of the garbage that got me to that place. You know, it's because of it. And when you say it in that context, um, it, the gratitude I have is the distance I've traveled and how thankful I am that that distance was traveled when we met, because that's just another person that was affected positively by, by a lot of heartache and a lot of successes and a lot of this thing called

life, you know, and, and my entire objective with communicating that in my book was recognizing that we all live different, well, different experiences. It's kind of the same journey.

And, and if you can find that overlap in that journey, because I think people look at athletes as unidentifiable because like somehow they're so good at something, but, but what you have to go through to turn pro at the age of 16, or like my wife turning, playing Wimbledon at 13, like, I mean, what, think about what you have to go through every day of your life, right? It's like, you don't, in some ways we're so overdeveloped, you know, in growth and experiences in other ways, we're so underdeveloped, you know, we're so not ready for what these things mean. And, and,

and for me, that conflict, you know, started as a child. I mean, it started as a kid.

It is amazing how, I also think, and we'll, we'll, we'll move on to, to something more fun and fluffier, um, on the other side of it, but it is weird. Cause I think because people talk about it and then you get the generations, like it's, you, you're allowed to talk about it now and it's allowed to be okay. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's Naomi talking about it. It's, you know, Roger going about his business in a very different way. That was less tortuous that I've like, I've said, I don't

have an ounce of jealousy for Roger for what he accomplished. My jealousy is for his ease of operation. Like he was able to be his best self daily. He was allowed to like do all the things.

So we think. Yeah. So we think, but even so I would, you would have seen it some way, shape or form in the toughest moments, like a crack. It's not meant to question it. It's just meant to say

there's a lot we probably don't know too. That's probably right. Yeah. I mean, there's a,

there's a million things, but I think because someone actually like rips the bandit off and has a conversation about it, I do think it matters to the people following. So congratulations for that. And kind of walking through that door. Um, one thing I want to do, cause it would be malpractice if I didn't just turn this into what I want to know about. Um, now cause I have you here, your brain, the way you view matchups, the way you break things down. Um, I expect it'll be on full display at, you know, on TNT set the bar low. Thank you. I'm not worried. I already set

the bar. I'm not worried about you. I know you're going to worry about yourself, but I'm, I'm not worried. I'm just going to go through some names, lots of which I haven't played. And I just want you to tell me what was a nightmare about them and where you thought you could make progress a little bit. Let's start with someone that I never played. Uh, Matt's V lander. Well, that's a generational

question, right? Cause when I came into the game, the first time I ever played him, I was 15 years old. I lost to him second round after qualifying at La Quinta, which is, you know, the Palm Springs term. And I won my first round of main draw and I played him. I lost one and one and came off the court and told my brother, like, I want to play that again. I can beat that dude. Like he can't break

it. You lost one and one. I lost to you when I was 17, two and three. And I said, like,

it wasn't that close. Yeah. But my point is, is that he hit the ball. Like I was the first one to come into the game, but everybody that gets the number one in the world brings something the game hasn't seen on some level, right? You did it. I mean, everybody who gets the number one and has any modicum of, of staying there or winning slams, I always do something that the game has to adjust to. And for me, it was about taking the ball off both wings, whether it was low or high and being able to hurt the ball and be able to do it as early in the court as I wanted to.

Right. So the game hadn't seen it. So somebody like Matt's Vlaunder, who won three of the four grand slams in 1988, beat me in the semis of Paris and the semis 6-0 in the fifth, because I cramped.

Like I came off the court going like, I could have ran him all day. I mean, like all he's doing is right. So you felt like it wasn't about tennis at that point? No, physically. I mean, not to say I would have won if I didn't cramp, but my point is, is that that's the way that's the generational gap.

So playing Matt's Vlaunder, when I started to, let's say, you know, beat him was just a fundamental of like, he, he made, and respect to Matt's because he's, the guy never got tired. He got as fast as wind. The guy wouldn't miss a ball for hours. I mean, total respect for everything he's done, but like, he made me feel like there should be weight classes in tennis. That's how I kind of thought of it. It was like at 18, 19, 20 years old. So for me and the way I played the game matched up against him was literally about driving the train through main street. It was just like, you just

deal with what I'm bringing. I'm going to get back to that. Cause I think there's a weird end around with, with someone else for the dental list. I'm finally excited that you, a story that I had heard over drinks for a couple of years, finally made its way mainstream with the Becker tongue

situation where you, but like talk, talk, talk about Boris. Like I went back and watched that documentary and it's happy he's doing well again, obviously. But I mean, that guy was like, you watch him in the highlights from 85. He looked different than everyone else. You talk about someone that like shook the fabric of the sport, man child, man child. Yeah. Right. With Boris. I mean,

I mean, he's, he's, I don't know if he's an underrated athlete, but he's a greater athlete, even if he didn't underrate him. I mean, he's a better athlete when you face him than when you watch him and respect what he's actually doing. I mean, he's six, three, he'd crouch in a position at net and you think like you have this big target and he could swallow that space up like nobody, even if it meant rolling on the ground to cover it under control. Right. And if you couldn't deal with his serve, that's a real problem. I mean, the one thing about him, that was, that was tough.

And I had an inroad to his game because of the serve, but you know, he could absolutely drive backhand second serve returns or forehands either direction. He, from the deuce court, if you serve body backhand, he could pull that thing and come flying in with his athleticism.

He could hit the off one bit like Leighton Hewitt would, except offensively and move forward.

Right. So now you're on the full one trying to pass him forehand. He could do the same thing.

He could pull it or he could go offline and just come flying in with total athleticism behind it.

Nothing stressed me out more than somebody that could stress out my second serve. Right. It's like, it's like, you just feel like, okay, what's the deal today? So when I played him, my first serve percentage had to go way up and I had to have something else. I mean, Boris to this day probably denies that he did that with his tongue, but then I would challenge him with this comment, which is like, are you actually admitting I can beat you 10 times in a row?

No. I mean, I mean, let's be serious. I mean, like you're like Boris Becker for God's sake. I mean, how, how's that even possible? And less. So the guy, no, talk about somebody that, that, that added flair. And I mean, he, he came into the game, not just on the court, but also off the court. He changed the marketplace from the standpoint of sponsorships and he could take the oxygen out of a room, you know, pretty, pretty quickly. Uh, Ed Berg.

Eddie, uh, he was, he was classic. So Ed Berg, um, yeah. You know, when I, when I played Ed Berg, I can tell you now looking back more than I really understood it at the time. But the thing that would always surprise you about Ed Berg is you thought he had this, um, real weak forehand, right. Which it wasn't as better. It wasn't his best shot, but it was like, it was like he would just look weird, but he could flight it and kind of put it in corners. And yeah, he could knuckle it, right. Like he would knuckle it. So you have to generate a ball off nothing. Right. So nowadays

with the spin and the strings, it might be easier to manage, right. Getting the ball down if he comes forward or what have you. Not as easy with pro blend. Not as easy with pro blend. You could, I mean, you could reel in a Marlin with that stuff. Um, but with, but what he would do is he, you know, I would go after his forehand and then, and then all of a sudden he would use the pace that you give them to his forehand, he'd find a hole for it. Then you go safe to the backhand side of the court. And he would just let this off backhand fly up the line. That was, that was the most, his volleys might be the greatest of all time. As far as just fundamental first volley. His first

volley was like just rocks. I like, I don't know if he's ever missed the first volley. Like, like if he hit a kick serve, he came in and you were off the court and you buried that thing in a shoe. And he had that court to work with. He's not missing that. Like 99 out of a hundred times, he's not missing that, that volley. I mean, I mean, Pete could do some incredible things at net, but he can miss that volley. You know what I mean? Edberg's not missing that volley, but his shot that was most underrated was you hit a routine ball to his backhand and he would just hit it routine back. So you're always managing that cost risk. Why do something you don't have to do?

Then the next thing you know, you go, okay, well, I'm not, I don't need to really take risks. So I'm not going to. And then he would just hit this off one-handed backhand, like flyer, like line and come in behind it. And he was one of the hardest guys in the world. How would the way that Becker and

Edberg cover the net differently? Cause I mean, you said you couldn't find space against Boris, but Edberg, the footwork was more intense. And whereas Becker felt like he was tumbling towards

things a little bit. And he's just watching. You're fair enough. Becker, Edberg read the play and he was there 85% of the time. It's cause he like, he read it. Like he, Boris waited till you hit it.

And then would explode to the spot. And then would just, then would just swallow the space with sheer athleticism, size and, and ability to lay out for it. Right. So he's taking athletic six, three and turning it into, you know, six, six was good hands. Right. So that's how I would differentiate the two. I always felt to me, like I went to pass Becker. He was waiting for me to hit it. And I felt like Edberg was like maybe a step ahead on the percentages of where I'm going to hit it.

Talk about Mac. You know, Mac had an incredible ability to offset power, right? To neutralize power. So like he, he could keep the ball down with no pace, which kind of affected the way I came into the game. Cause I came into the game kind of going through guys and Mac was that generation where I felt like, you know, maybe I can go through this guy, but I couldn't quite go through him because the balls he would hit were not only not much pace to it, but they were always low. He never, you felt

like you were lifting on every ball that you hit against the guy. Plus his ability to cut angles was a joke. His speed was way underrated too. I mean, he was, he was quick. I mean, the guy had

unbelievable footwork and he took unbelievable angles towards, to the ball. I mean, especially in the forecourt, but even in the backcourt, I mean, if he shoveled a forehand from the lefty side, right, he shovels a forehand, you know, towards down the line and gets bad direction and you crank it cross, he's already committed to an angle at that ball and he's button that thing down and coming in. So now you're, you're actually behind, you're having to lift it and having to generate. And he's on top of the net. You always feel like you're lifting the ball against him.

Talk about Connors. Um, be nice. Hmm. Listen, I mean, I've, I've Connors. When I looked at him as

an 18 year old, I saw somebody I recognize in the sense that he always had his team around him.

He always seemed like he had this, um, appropriate, um, how would I call it? Appropriate paranoia about him, right? Like, like he didn't trust anybody that wasn't on his team, but he trusted his team.

Immensely. And I, there's something I identified with that. I mean, he, what he did for the game was incredible. And, and I mean, Jimmy surprised the hell out of me when I played him by, by his ability, which would have been later on in his career. Yeah. It would have been later on. Although years later, he was still got to the semis in the open, pretty incredible. I was, I was, I was really amazed at Jimmy's ability to, to take pace and use it against you. Right. So if I hit a hard ball to his backhand, he would maybe stay with one cross to my forehand. Then I hit

it hard again to his backhand. And then he would, he would take a two handed early, like inside out shovel, like, like, like a, like a two handed side spin shot, like line. And he would come in, he was only like five, nine, but man, he only came in on his terms. And when he came in, he charged, talk about a guy that never missed a volley. I mean, he made sure.

I mean, he turned his racket into a, into a sand wedge.

Do you think we have this thing in tennis where if someone's a baseliner, that means we don't give them credit for the volley. Cause like the three of the best volleyers I've ever seen are watched Connors, Hewitt and Rafa.

Thank you for saying Rafa.

Right. Like completely.

Like, but we were so lazy if they're like a baseliner, that means they don't like, just cause they don't come in a lot. It doesn't mean they're not golden when they get there.

You know what I would have loved to have seen. I would have loved to have seen Rafa play a match where he had to come in 68 times.

He still would have won it.

Just, just, just to watch what he could come up with to set that record straight.

Jim Currier.

Yeah. Jim was the first guy that was a bigger bully than I was. I mean, you know what I mean?

Like he was, he was when I realized the game was changing, you know, Jim had a heavy serve.

Don't kid yourself. His second serve was, was heavy. It was hard to hurt his second, hard for anybody. I mean, he had a winning record against Krejcik. Krejcik couldn't even come in behind the second serve. You know what I mean? He had a real heavy second serve and he had a big first punch, like no tomorrow. I mean, this forehand inside out or inside in was monster.

He was always looking to take it early. And although his backhand was awkward and I could imitate it at will and probably tell you his grip just by how many times I saw it from the side of the net. But if it was in his pocket, I mean, he could bat that thing. And it was like a flight,

it was like a flighted kind of, it would like sail.

It was low and you're going, please go long. Why do I have this feeling like it's not going long? It's just, I mean, it eats you. If that ball bounces, it's like, so it's like, I, I, you, you want to get it to his backhand and he, he squeezed that court as good as anybody. I mean,

you had to go out. Even with your ability to hit it to both corners, it's still like it was, it was heavy enough to where you didn't feel like you could take shots there.

Um, you know what I, I didn't, when Jim did most, his beating on me, um, was before Brad and I didn't really have a coach. So like, I, like, I mean, so I, nobody ever told me go after his forehand to open up his backhand. So he couldn't get that ball in his pocket. Right.

Like nobody ever told me that, but, but even if somebody told me that he's still hard to execute against, cause he's still going to get that first ball, every chance you don't hit it. Perfect.

Michael Chang. You know, here's a great thing I'll say about Michael. Maybe one time I've ever played them where the second set was easier than the first, it did not matter what scoreline was happening. That match was going to get harder as a match went on. He was a problem solver. He was a competitor. Um, he had incredible speed defensively, but I never minded his speed defensively. If I could get on top of the point early, he was content to run. And like, I have a great relationship with

somebody on the court if they like to run and cause I like to make them run. Right. So that was my deal.

But he also had this incredible offensive ability to take the real estate if you hit the ball a little short. So he would, he would burn you so many times. He could, he could, he could, he could thump a forehand if it was hanging. And he'd get up to it quick and he'd get under every volley. So even if he hit it off forehand, off a serve out wide, off forehand and in, you get the ball down. He never quit with his legs. He was always under that ball. And it wasn't an easy guy. It wasn't an easy guy to pass because he never came in when it was just about his size. He always came in when he could use

his legs. And so he kind of presented challenges. I don't know what our career was. He beat me four times, but every time it was like in big matches, I mean, he beat me in some big matches because I knew, and that's another thing he wear on you. You knew he was punching in the clock.

And it's a tough one. Like I had that with Hewitt, like you, you knew going in that it was just, you might win, you might lose. You were going to feel horrible at some point in the afternoon to where it's like, this guy's, is he, he's tougher than I am. He's fitter than I am. He's like going to ask all these questions. He's not going to blow me away, which make, it's almost this weird pressure mechanism where it's like, okay, it's up to you, which has its own like set of, you know,

getting the wheels turning. Oh yeah. And the gravitational pull of, you know, being so close to the finish line yet the opposite, like opposite magnet feeling against him, you're trying to close out a match and somehow you go, why does the finish line feel so far away? Uh, talk about Lendl.

Um, so Lendl brought a lot of physicality. He was the first one to bring real training and like, I can play for seven hours kind of thing to the, to the tennis court. But Lendl needed somebody who struggled with his, his slice, his slice backhand. He needed somebody that struggled with that.

No, it wasn't. I was, I, you know, I mean, he got me early in my career, but that shot is a shot.

I kind of looked at as opportunity, you know, but if somebody can't handle that hard, you know, like, let's just call it like a Todd Woodridge kind of, you know, stick slice and they lift that ball to that guy. I mean, his, his, his, his serve was underrated. God, he could hit his spots on his

serve. I, it's funny. You say the Lendl thing. That's how I felt against a lot. If I could get away with a chip to switch directions and like move it around, I was fine. But then the three, the three people you needed to beat to win a major had no issue with it. Like, and it was a pro or if

they like chip better, the three people you need to beat to win a major had no problem with anything.

I mean, for God's sake, we're going to get to them. Uh, but even like Murray. So like I would, I would, I would chip to Murray and all of a sudden he would chip it back chip short. Yeah. It was a better chip. It was a Dr. Feel good chip. And it was better chip. And it was going to worse spots.

Like, you know, it was going to my back instead of his back in, but that's the way, that's kind of the way I felt. If I can get away with the chip, then I'm beating whoever was across the net 99% of the time. Yeah. And they were like, you were to Lendl and it took away that option. And it was like, I'm, I'm having to deal with this. Now I got a really whole serve. Now I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's seriously, uh, Leighton Hewitt. We're going to another generation. Yeah. Leighton Hewitt. I mean,

gosh, he was a, he was a puzzle for me for first couple of times I played him. It was a puzzle.

He could absorb pace like nobody. And if you gave him pace and tried to go through him, do it.

You can beat him cross court. Do it at your own peril. Do it at your own peril. But I tell you one thing, um, if you gave him nothing, he gave you nothing. So it became this real, like the chip would see against him. My, it wasn't back in the backhand. Cause I could just chip, right? You could get away. I mean, I don't, I don't own that shot, right? I don't have that shot, but you know, you know how hard it is for me to resist torquing a backhand cross court. I mean, just, you know, how much discipline it takes to play Leighton Hewitt for four hours and not try to rip a

backhand. When I see space. I mean, the only time you could go aggressive on Leighton was one time a point. Like it's like go aggressive line. And if his shoes are screeching and he sounds like he's out of position, don't believe it. And then if he gets himself back into the point, start again, but do not try to hit two big ones in a row. No, don't do it. Like he absorbed pace. Well, plus, you know, he, he was one of the first ones to really turn defense and offense. Like, like he was one of those

defenders that can go from like scrapping, scrapping. Then you don't quite do something.

And he's gone from the forehand corner inside the court on the backhand corner.

That's the thing with like their defenders. I mean, all the great defenders that we talk about throughout, we're talking about Chang. We're talking about Matt's could come in. We're talking about Leighton. They had the ability and they could recognize the ball to go get their lunch. Also, they would almost lull you into it, but it wasn't going to be predictable. Right. They kind of came

on the, on their terms. And some of them could have done it more than others. Right. But Leighton, I think was the first one that said, careful, I'm on defense. And if you're not careful, I will get on offense. I feel like Matt's was saying to himself, I'm on defense and I don't know how you're going to end this point, but you're going to have to have 15 more shots. Right.

Leighton was the first one I ever played that could just get on defense. And he's actually in his mind getting fed up with that and looking for an opportunity to take that point over and using his speed offensively as much as defensively, sometimes two or three times inside a point.

And then the one that I kind of think is almost like the prototype for these, all these guys that are now six foot six that can run, defend, and it looks natural. It doesn't look awkward. It's not like, you know, like Mark Rosset was six foot seven when you played, but he looked like he moved, moved like he was six foot seven. He could punch in the face, but he

was Marat Safin. Marat Safin was, first of all, he's six, five, right? Massive. Yeah. Yeah. Massive.

So Marat Safin was my, let's call it my days Zarev, right? Like big, tall dude, served from the trees, monster backhand, better forehand. This forehand was, I mean, he absolutely could dismiss any ball in the midcourt off both wings, moved well. He was like, like, I remember when he beat Pete at the open, I was, I was watching that. And I said, if you were to build a tennis player, how do you not build that guy, right? First six foot five guy to just like leave, leave tracks on

a hard court and, and just snap balls off that are sitting midcourt and could serve out of the trees and stop you from being in any service game. And by the way, he can just absolutely pound your second serve. I played him at the, at the Australian open one time in the semifinals, should have won the first two sets, lost six and six, then beat him seven, five, finally broke him seven, five, six, one. I thought I was running away with it. Cause he was going to do like that, that escape parachute, you know, Russian thing that happens occasionally with him. Right. And he ended up

beating me in five, but he could play. I was so sore from just the first move defending my serve first or second. It was like you, I would hit a quality first serve and there was a lot of lunging. I mean, his return was, I mean, a toothpick in his hand. It looked like me holding a baton, like a baton. It was nothing. It was, yeah, no. And then, and then he knew what he was doing moving forward. How that, like, how that guy doesn't have like double digits is confusing to me.

Um, Pete. Oh my God. So everybody knows what Pete was great at. Right. And you had the, you know, privilege of playing him. Um, I had the privilege too many times of playing him, but, um, um, we all know that a serve might be one of the most fundamentally great shots in all of sports.

I mean, I mean what he could generate with, with his serve. I mean, it was, it was like it's poetry in motion. It was so connected. Serve was unbelievable. Right. Um, speed. I mean, he, he was selective about his speed. So you could actually think to yourself, maybe he's not, doesn't move that well, but then when he sees opportunity or it smells blood in the water, he turned on those jets, that dude had a 40 that would just blow out anyway. So speed. We knew his hands. We knew here's the one thing I think people didn't really get about what Pete was so

good at, at least as it related to how it matched up against me. He refused to let you get rhythm, to let you get refused it. I mean, when I say refuse it, it was like that dude would hold serve.

And then he would try for two points on your serve. And then if he didn't win those two points, the game, he didn't, the game's over. He didn't care. His goal from that point on the rest of the game was for you not to actually hit another ball. Right. And, and, and so that what you end up realizing is, geez, here we are, we've held serve uneventfully. He held it. I held because he shank a ball, you know, this games are going by in a hurry.

And all of a sudden it's 30 all and he's hitting three chips in a row to you.

Or all of a sudden it's 30 all and he hits something off the frame and it floats and finds a piece of real estate. And then he uses his speed and darts forward with his hands.

And you go to hit what you would call a routine passing shot. And you realize I haven't hit this shot in 25 minutes and you have to now hit it to not lose the set. I mean, Pete's one of the only guys that ever played in the finals. When you get to the finals, you know, you're playing well and you don't worry about playing well. You just hope you can do it better. When I got to the finals and played Pete, I worried if I was going to go from playing great to just not playing well, because that was his ability to sort of lull you into this abyss. It's like, like, you just felt

like, okay, nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. Why is it? Why is it set over? Can hold on timeout can just like somebody tell me like what just happened there? I mean, I thought I was playing just fine and the set's gone. I mean, yeah, Pete deserves all the credit for that.

I think might be the most clutch player of all time. He was unconscious about like, just he, he would do like, he would do this thing. And I don't think we operate this way.

I'll speak for myself. I definitely don't operate this way. He could lose a set in practice Saturday before a Monday to some chucker who's ranked 400 in the world. And it wouldn't even affect him a little. And do you think he even played a set in practice? I saw him lose to so many bad players when he was training at Saddlebrook. I was there. I mean, it was like, but doesn't.

And I asked him, I said, how do you, how do you, how do you even, he goes, I don't know. He's like, it'll be there. I'm like, what'll be there? He's like it, it, I don't even know what that is. Like,

I don't know how to, I don't know. So a quick little story about him. He was retired a couple of years retired. I was still playing and they, they were trying to put this deal together where me and Pete play Mac and Connors and there was this whole handicap system and, and, and it was for like huge dollars or whatever. So I call Pete and I'm like, you know, like, what do you think? And he's like, yeah, I mean, you want to do it? I'll do it. And I was like, like, I mean, like you saw me last week and, you know, I'm hitting the ball pretty well. You know, I haven't seen you in two years. Okay. I was like, how are you doing? Right. Like, talk to me about your game. He goes, I mean, just give me a couple of weeks. I'll just roll the arm over.

I can just imagine that conversation with you. If someone said you had to play, like you would have been, you would have been like, I need to like get everything right. Like I would have been into,

I would have been, I would be in a tailspin. I would have paid a million bucks not to put myself

through it. Yeah. Pete, one time we were on a flight and I had him trapped cause we were the only two people on it. So he had to talk to me. And I remember he told me and it just broke my soul and I knew he was absolutely right. He goes, you were just good enough from the baseline for it to

be a problem for you. He, he actually, he told you that too, huh? Yeah. Yeah. I'll never forget.

I'll never, I use it as an example quite often. I mean, I don't mean to bring this up, but like, and when we played in Cincinnati, it was a perfect example. It was like, you held serve like quickly one zero. And then, and then I think I got down like 1540 of some long points back to deuce, add deuce, whatever. I finally hold at one all. I felt ready for any pressure opportunity that might present itself because I was, everything was kind of, you know, like the radar had come on. Right.

So like, if you gave me a chance that next game on your serve, whatever it was, it was like, I felt like I could take it. I never felt that way against Pete. I felt like I might,

might miss this like shockingly bad. Now I, I had a hard time with your pace. Cause I can, I can, I can let it go, but I needed like when I had two feet under me, if I was playing, you know, one of the old school Spanish guys or like, I knew that I was going to have time where both feet were set.

And then I could go, but I needed, I didn't have like that quick, you know, trigger like Pete, where he could just like move on one quickly. And so against you, I felt like I was always kind of backing up, backing up, back. I just didn't feel like I could, I could force it forward.

So I always saw you as like, let's just take away the, the personal side of things. I always said, I always saw you, like, I always saw you in my own mind, like pace to the forehand safe, no pace to the backhand safe, pace to the backhand. I have to worry line. Cause you can redirect that like nobody's business, no pace to the forehand. I got problems, no pace to the backhand where you get around it. I got problems. So if I go no pace to your backhand and I don't like the way that thing came off my racket immediately, like I had full attention for you getting around it.

But if I liked the way it came off my shot, I knew you were going to have to generate with the backhand. Then I could physically kind of position myself in a court to then go faster to your forehand. Right. If I went fast to your forehand right away, I knew that unless you hit it perfectly, I could pick the next one up and get it down to your backhand. Right. So those two elements that work together always made me feel good only in the baseline exchanges. The problem was getting to the baseline exchanges with you. That was the problem. I love that for you. That sounds awesome.

That sounds great. Come on. I mean, I still got to find a way to get into the game.

A couple more. And then you've given us so much time. Roger, you played him in it. People are going to forget you played him in a Grand Slam final.

Yeah. I mean, I played him in the quarters. It was two quarters too. I played him in the open quarters and Aussie open quarters. You know, Roger was the first guy I ever played against where I could hit a ball exactly how I wanted. I knew it. And I, and I still didn't feel safe.

Like, like, like I knew I was going to bleed him with a backhand and he was going to slice it.

Normally that's pretty good territory to be in, but you always.

His slice comes off weird though.

You always had to have your cutter.

It's so like, you have to like get like really kind of create that like friction mechanism against it. Right. Like it just like doesn't get to you. And then if it, his slice comes off different.

Yeah. There's no doubt, but you know what he did so, so much differently is like he would take one big step with his right foot. If he's going to hit over a backhand and he catch that ball later than most one handers catch it. Right. So he, and then he could throw that thing. Right. So like he'd step back and just letting the ball travel that much deeper in the strike zone just made you pause that, that, that, that split second. And then if he didn't hit it all that well, I'd never felt like I was seeing pause and you couldn't take that step in. And then, then, so on a side note,

from a strategic standpoint in tennis, the hardest, the easiest thing to do on a tennis court is to expect opportunity and then abort, expect opportunity, then abort. The hardest thing to do on a tennis court is to not expect opportunity. Then all of a sudden you get it right. And then you're up to it a second late, your mind's going a mile a minute. And, and then you can over, over juice that. You can under juice it. You could talk yourself into, it's like, it's like, we're always looking to slow

down our side of the court. And if you look for opportunity and it's not there, you keep it slow by aborting. Right. So with Roger, I, I, I, I would hit a ball and I would, and I wasn't allowed to look for opportunity because if I, even if I looked, I could be in trouble. Right. It's like it's, it was, he could just hold it and then penalize you. I mean, I, the way he, he was magic. I mean, he's just absolutely magic. When I, he beat me in the finals of the open. I mean, I was, I was saying hello to the, you know, to the next player of the next future generations. Little did

I know, you know, we'd have two guys named, you know, Rafa and, you know, Novak come around.

I still say there, there are people who serve bigger. Um, but I still, when people ask me as far as pitching a ball game, I think you and Roger were really great at pitching a ball game. You have 17 tosses. Like you would throw them into different things. You would hit one out of your ear. You'd let one, it would get a foot past where it normally. And so like, just for our listeners, like you get rhythm off of someone's serve and that's when you time your split step. And that's when you, you know, start looking. And when you're picking them off clean, you're, you're finding that rhythm. This motherfucker would, would literally like toss the ball up two feet higher than serve

one out of his ear. And Roger had that game too. Wow. He could quick serve. He could lay off. He could, you know, hit one wide. He could slight. And I thought you two were the ones where like, you would toss it up. And I know you wanted to get to your kick to open up, but like you would make, you would kind of save it for certain moments. You two, like Pete served great. His second serve was, was way better, but he had all the options also with speed. I think you guys had to negotiate your speed in a way that was the most effective that I'd ever seen. Well, yeah. I mean,

listen, I, I, I don't disagree with that. I was very purposeful in every serve I hit to set up the rest of the point, but I tell you, people forget that Roger was just a straight serve volleyer for a couple of years early on in his career. And he, he played me at the open, just serve volleying. I mean, I was like, you know, thank you. I mean, I was like, thank you. Like literally it wasn't until he actually stopped doing that. But I'm like, Oh, one or Oh two or something like that. I, I, those years run together. Cause I actually liked the game at that point, but no, but he, he, yeah. Cause I remember like Pete was even congratulated. He even came out

of the shell and congratulated me in the tournament. Cause he, it was going to be a problem and it was a bad round round of 16 or something, but he served volleyed and it was like, Whoa, I mean, like, so his serve dropped off to me dramatically. If he got predictable behind it, like when he's, when he, all of a sudden you didn't know on top of it, if he was going to serve volley versus stay back.

I didn't see that. And it was like, he would pull the string at certain points. And like, to this day we've played however many times, I don't know where he's going on a break point on the outside. Oh yeah. Like anywhere he wants. Yeah. And it would be different paces. There's the one 17, there's the one 28, there's a similar to you, you know, same swing. It's like a changeup versus a fastball. And like a golfer scaring the cup on every roll too, even if he misses.

And by the way, like just people at home listening to commentators going like, well, they're not, you know, they're not making returns like against you, against the players that we're talking about.

If you don't stick that first ball against them, it's not a matter of making it. We're not just missing returns because we don't know what to do. Like it's because that first ball, if I lay in the middle against him, I might as well have missed it. Like it's, you kind of have

to create. My whole objective is to get any ball that isn't hit purely. I mean, when I say purely, not just off the string stock, but, but, but depth or direction is getting penalized. And when you walk off the real estate of that tennis court, that's about everywhere, except maybe two feet from lines.

Uh, talk about Rafa and I want to get it back to the, I drew a line from Matt's because you said, you know, he likes playing defense and I like making people play defense. I want to say Rafa might be the one that, that, that changed that you guys played an Oh five in the final in Canada.

If I'm not wrong. I remember watching that one and it felt like, Oh, he's taking Andre shots to the corners, but he's creating this spin profile that like, it was the first time I'd seen you

uncomfortable after you had gotten kind of on top of the point point. Yeah. So unfortunately that year, it was a high bouncing Canadian open court, which is just a bad, just bad rate, bad math there with Rafa. He was a first guy ever played where I looked at him going out there, not knowing better. I looked at him like, okay, lefty, a lot of spin. Um, if you go after his forehand, he's gonna leave a lot of balls short. You can dictate from there. I don't mind if he's going to get to the extra same thing you're saying, but I went out there early in the match.

I pounded one backhand cross court. He tried to fight it off and go deep. I took the next one early and I moved him around and won the point. And I literally think I physically saw him like the Terminator go. Okay. I got it. Next time he does that, I'm going so high and so short that in order for me to take that thing on the rise, I had to, I had to commit so far into the court. And what I never had is that speed, right? I had always had good footwork. I always, you know, had a decent

line. It was controlling the middle and the circle C. Yeah. And if it was windy, it didn't matter

because my feet were going, you know, but so all of a sudden I like bake a backhand cross court.

He'd throw that thing up in the air where it's landing on the service line. If I don't get up on top of that ball, I have to now back up. This is going to be way over my head. So I'm literally going, okay. So I got up on top of it and I hit it perfectly. He's bruising you. No, no. You're stuck in the middle of the court. You're done. So then I said, okay, I got my play. Now he's going to do that thing and I'm going to commit and come forward and just screw it because he's way over there. Right. He throws a spin up, but just take it early up the line. I'm already at net. Like, like, like literally I'm already there. He's in the corner. He still finds a way to throw that

thing at my feet. I actually hit a great for me drop folly, right? Cause it's the only play I had underneath the net. And he runs and throws that thing over and around me. It wasn't until it bounced. And then he, then he throws a Vamos like, like three feet away. And I'm going respect,

respect. I mean, that's, that's too good. That's too good. But I've, I've, I, I, I got his weakness.

So you know what his weakness is, right? Tell me the only way I broke, serve that match. Tell me, I just, here's this guy that had all these quirks to him. I just kick over his water bottle. Yeah.

I wanted to do that one time. I kicked over his water bottle. Did you, you did, did you really do that? Yeah. I tipped it over. Oh, I wanted to go full grammatical on at one time. No, no, no. I

didn't want to do that. Cause it would, I didn't want to cause an issue. I just wanted to see how he reacted. So he walked to the same. So then he goes and he starts doing the, I've talked about this so many times. He goes through his whole routine that he's done a million times. And then just before he serves, it's like his eyes turned to his water bottle and it was, and it was like, not perfect.

It was dead. Yeah. Anyhow, I got it. I broke him for the second set, but that didn't last.

I don't, I don't think you played Novak, right?

Uh, I actually played him in a, in a pre Wimbledon exhibition grass court thing, which is useless. I mean, he was over a hundred in the world and give us, give me your thoughts.

A lot of times I use you as the example of him being able to control the middle of the court, but then you add five inches, you add the length, you add the defense. And it's like, I don't know where to go. What, what do you, what do you see when you spent the last 20 years

watching, watching Novak? I see the greatest defensive player the game's ever seen and shockingly, this might shock you, but when he needs to be not when he needs to be possibly the greatest offensive player the game's ever seen in the sense that he could open a court up from the center with a forehand cross. If he feels panicked at all, you know, he's the kind of guy, if you

think about it, he's like the boxer that needs to feel the glove hit him before he even engages, right? He gets out there on a tennis court and he just goes into this lockdown mode. Let the match come to me. Right. And you start throwing punches at him and then you get away with a few and then you start getting them like a little bit engaged. And then he goes into hyper lockdown mode and then he starts making you have to hit five winners a point to win a point. And then all of a sudden he gets a little agitated at that. Then he throws a little offense in and you're thinking to yourself, where did that come from now? Now that there's a little offense, like I couldn't win the point when he was

on defense and now he's on offense and he just like slowly, it's like if you're swimming in the ocean, like with 15 foot swells and Novak's like the wet blanket that gets thrown on you and you're just like, but I'm drowning anyhow. And, and now you're just, you just, it's like, he's like an amoeba that just, that just swallows you and drags you under. It's like, he beats you defensively. He beats you offensively. It's like, he wants to beat you. Like he wants to beat your mom too. Like, it's like, like take it easy. I mean, it's, it's okay. You're going to get through this. We don't like just this,

you know, but the guy is world-class. I mean, I mean, how many different ways can you say it?

He can hurt you from any part of the court in a defensive position. He can hurt you from any part of

the court in an offensive position. Return wise, like you were an offensive returner. You can make him when you needed to. Every great person could be better at something, but he was like, simultaneously, he had like the Murray length thing where he could stretch and put it a return in play. And you on second serves where you're putting on their shoe tops with, with, with force, like the offensive defensive thing doesn't just end during the point. He was able to do it with returns.

So here's how I saw his return, both as, you know, as an opponent and also being around him up close, you know, he, the whole purpose of a return is to get to neutral. That's the whole purpose of return, right? Like if, if you're better than somebody in the, in the, in the meat and potatoes you want to get, but neutral means something different depending on how well you move. Right. So like for me, neutral meant I had to get ahead on the return because if I just hit the return that Novak hits, somebody's going to move me and I'm

behind, right? Novak's not behind. So his need to panic on being offensive with his return is non-existent. I mean, he doesn't need to. Now the question is, if he had to be aggressive, what would it look like? And of course, if he did it over and over again, I think he has the ability to do it better than anybody, but for him, it was always about direct. It wasn't about, I don't feel like with Novak's offensive returning that it was ever about, um, he had

to, he had to be pissed off. He had to have a reason. Like it was hard to get him to think he even has to be aggressive on the return. Yeah. But if he had to, I mean, he can do

it. Um, talk about just quick couple of lines on each this new, you know, when the, the big threes, you know, Novak will eventually retire. We had this, you know, where they swallowed up 60 some odd grand slams over time and we're like, okay, yeah, we're, we're getting, we're getting back to some parody. And then Carlos comes in as one four by 22 center is looking like an extension of, of, of Novak, you know, maybe not the defensive skills, but when he gets on the front foot, he doesn't just hit it through the court. He hits it through

the court. I was amazed at the amount of shape that he has on it and how heavy he hits it.

Like he's like an algorithm. And so you have these guys again, what, what, what are you seeing when you're, when you're watching these two players? Oh yeah. I mean, the same thing

you're seeing, I mean, you know, Alcaraz, Alcaraz is upside on anything that isn't sure foot concrete. Yeah. Is I think is, is, is a little, is a little higher. The thing that amazes me most watching, you know, Carlos play live, like was how, um, little his speed diminishes

on clay and grass, right? Like, like, like most people who are fast, they go to grass and their speed comes down, you know, their court coverage comes down 5% just because you have to be really careful in the corners. You got to be careful on your first step. You got to let your body weight

move before you start pushing. You have to run through shots also. You can't stop and hit at the

same time. There's, but he can, you can slide into him. Even if you slide into him, the first step out has to be very careful. Second step has to be your push. So everybody's movement comes down a touch. His didn't, it was like, it's like he trusted himself so much on the power of his, of his second push that him running for a drop shot that caught him cold center court Wimbledon would, it would have, it would have broken my groin to think about going to that ball.

And he just trust that pause till his weight goes. And then he sticks on the jets.

And he gets there like a, like a flying saucer versus the F-15. It's like everybody's flying a plane and he's, he's like changing altitudes and reversing and his speed doesn't diminish. So on slippery surfaces, I mean, his upside is incredible and he's still so raw. I don't know if I hope he should learn how to maximize and we should enjoy watching him before he maximizes because it's so much fun for the fan to watch the way he plays the game, but he still has so much more upside from a standpoint of longevity. And now Sinner's exact opposite, right? Sinner is like

constantly maximizing. He's never hit a ball. He doesn't really need to, you know, and when he does let one rip, it makes you wonder if, you know, if he was forced to what that gear would really look like. Cause, cause he's playing, he's taking 85% cuts and they're, they're, they're, they're like, his jab is like a straight, right. It's like a straight, right. You know? So, and, but then don't kid yourself from the corners. I mean, you don't put them on maybe Novak from the corners cause

Novak's greatest. He's absurdly great. I'm just saying like, you know, maybe gets in the front foot sooner versus Novak is more likely to actually invite the test to the corners. Yeah. Yeah. Fair

enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, young just wants to take over it and never look back. He's just smothers. I mean, let me ask you a question. You had to call it today in hindsight, whose career do you think is better resume Alcaraz or Sinner when it's all said and done? If he had to, we're

popping off cause life control curves. One there, I don't know is the answer. My thing would just be on the early, the early things we've seen with Alcaraz and injuries. I don't know how a body moves that fast for 15 years. And that unnecessarily, but I said the same thing about Rafa. Right. So I was wrong about Rafa. I thought that I thought there's no way this guy plays past 27. There's just no way

that you can cycle a different, I mean, isn't there a difference between running for every ball and trying for every ball like Rafa did versus creating unnecessarily unnecessary, like, like,

like duress on yourself? Yes. The, the, I would go Sinner just because I can see him doing the same algorithm. I view him as a piece of software, like input, output, input, output, input, output.

And with Carlos, I'm just like, is he one, he's an artist. Is he going to get tired of it? Is he going to like, speaking of these a little edgy, this tournament? I don't know when you're airing

this, but we're talking about the French open tomorrow. Yeah. It's Monday where you'll be a

little edgy. I don't know. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. Yeah. Let's see what happens.

Curious to see it. I would go Sinner just because it seems like every Tuesday is kind of the same.

You know, like, but neither would surprise me. I say that with zero, zero confidence. One thing I want to, I want to touch on real quick before, before we finish is, can you talk about how you scheduled your practices at Wimbledon in 1999? I didn't. You didn't, but Brad did. Did he have any instructions? He seemed to think that it was supposed to either be before or after someone.

Oh, so that's become, yeah. So I, I would Wimbledon in 92 alongside my now bride, Stephanie Grav. I guess if you ever win Wimbledon, it was probably next to her during those years.

And there's a first year they canceled the dance and yeah, I was just bummed about that.

Tried for a few years. Wasn't, wasn't worthy enough apparently, but then we won the French together in 99 and I'm maybe gave me the confidence. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm worthy now. I don't know. So it was her birthday and, um, and I knew that and so does the world, but I was flying back to London and I was like, I wanted to just accidentally run into her and accidentally give her a birthday card that I made and accidentally leave my phone number on and what have you. So I just, you know, so Brad would schedule practices. Like just, it was simple. It was just, he'd go there, Grav plus one. And then I just, I mean, I stalked her the whole tournament. So I'd show up early

and I'd act like I stretched. By the way, pause on that shit for a second. Cause anyone who knows Andre, he would walk into the locker room. He'd kind of go like, like this, like do this and then go practice. And then if he actually stopped at the locker room on the way to his car, it was, it was a miracle. Less time spent in the locker room than maybe anyone that's ever been on tour.

So the fact that you're out, they didn't stretch, no stretching, no massage, no one's ever seen body work. It's like this thing. What happens? What happens when Andre goes home? We don't know, but it certainly wasn't stretching. So the fact that you're out there 15 minutes early, kind of pretending to stretch is, is the best part of the story.

Oh, without a shirt on too.

Without a shirt on. But you know, who spent less time at a tennis court than at a tennis court with Steph. I mean, cause she had the luxury of

Totally. And then, but she was the same way. She just like zip, zip, zip gone. Like, yeah, no, that was definitely, I was not one time. I wasn't, I might've been on the table more than once, but I remember one time that I was on the table, I think it was Henman. He, he looks over at me and he goes, can I just say something? And I was like, what, what's up? He goes, this is a real honor. What's an honor. He goes actually being on the table next to you because I don't

think anybody's ever done that before ever. Yeah. Cause I was just never, it wasn't, wasn't my,

wasn't my deal. The visual of you scheduling practices around her practices and actually getting there and stretching would have ended me. We didn't know each other at that point, but that would have, that would have absolutely killed me. You want me to tell you when I knew

Rafa, I would never beat him. Yes. That's what I would want. I was at the French open. I don't remember what year it was, but it was one of the years where I said I shouldn't come back to this tournament anymore. Cause I have no chance, but in any case it was in 2000 and here's this 17 year old kid. And you remember those lockers where they used to click them, right? So you get your code and then you have to click the number. You couldn't just go to the numbers. Yeah. Click, click, click. And you look at his code, click, click, click. And then I was the only one that I prided myself on how hard I worked. I was the last one, you know, leaving the job, so to speak, except this kid comes in

later than me and we're the only ones in the locker room. And I could see him through lockers and he looks at his code and I was like, Oh, he's a rookie. You know, he doesn't know he's trying to figure it out and click, click, click, click, click, click. And it doesn't open. And he's like, you know, and he starts again. He looks at his code and click, click, click, click, click. And it doesn't open. And he goes, bam. And he hits the locker. I'm not kidding. It's got us in my windows. He hits the locker. And then he's like, shakes it off. And then, and I'm, I'm going, is this kid serious? Right. Then he's like, click, click, click, click. And it opens.

And he goes, no, no, no, no, I'm not making it up. There was no one else in there. And he self almost, he was like in a war with the locker and he was going to win it and he won it. And I was like, I can't beat this guy. It says, that's too good. I mean, I just, and then he proved it 14

times. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Uh, I'm going to tell one more anecdotal story and then we're going to let you go. Uh, but like there are a million stories like this about Andre where it's this offset of being serious and also kind of loving shit as much as I love shit. So Doug Spreen, who is my trainer, uh, from Oh three on, but used to be in the locker room. Andre wouldn't, wasn't, he would only be in there before he had to like go on or something. It's like a hot day in Australia. So there's this, this is twofold. One, I was in there. It was like a one, Oh two, no. Oh two, probably maybe

a three something. And it was like, everyone's complaining about how I was like, Oh man, it's hot out there. And like, I was expecting like, Oh, okay. And he go, fuck's wrong with you. I was like, what are you talking about? He goes, imagine a job. Imagine complaining about a job where you only have to be better than one person a day. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's that lands.

I thought you were going to tell the Prenticell one. Yeah. I'm going to tell the Prenticell one.

This is my favorite. You know, which one I'm going to tell. It's the best one.

It was Dougie Spreen was in there. Dougie Spreen tells the story.

Who's Dougie, who's Dougie Spreen? Dougie Spreen is my trainer and he was on tour trainer forever.

So when you see someone right on the court and have to fix something, that was, that was Dougie for a long time. And then he worked for me until for my entire career. Once I want enough to make enough money to pay him. But so you're playing Prenticell is a good player, German dude, but like a lot of, you know, you go to Australia and especially Andre was in his run there. Like he was in, you know, four to five. He was like, he was Novak numbers for half a decade and Prenticell, like, I don't know how to explain it. Had like the short calf, like coming from Germany, you'd see people get to Australia and they were like pay too pale to take the heat. Like you would

see, it's like that guy's freckles need to connect in order for him to handle this heat, you know, at some point. So dangerous player kind of punchy, like would get, would bleed you a little bit, but like not super consistent. One of the last guys to finish on the opposite foot when he served kind of situation. But I guess Dougie, uh, I guess Andre said to Dougie before he's going out, it's hot, hot in Australia. And I guess, I guess you said to him before you went out, you said,

Dougie, you're going to have to come get him today. And Dougie was like, come get him. What do you, what do you, what do you mean? Come, come get him. He's like, you're going to come get this guy today. And Dougie's like, all right, something else. And so sure as shit, like apparently you go out and you're just bleeding in corner, corner, one of those hot days. And he can't get you out of the center of the court. And you're just like, you have one story probably gets overtold, but you're laying off of it. Like you're, you're happy to extend pain. You win the first set 13, 11 in a breaker and print is still like, it's the full thing. He's got the fan, he's throwing ice on himself.

He's going, you know, and then sure enough, like the heat obviously didn't get any cooler.

Andre's doing the little, the little walk up quick, you know, the little jog out of the chair, you know, past him and the whole thing. Sure enough, print a cell taps out.

Oh, it's even, it's even better than that.

Dougie Spreen comes out of the court and had to get him. Tell, tell me.

No, better than that.

I've heard this story retold 15 times.

I'm so, I'm so ready to play. My bag's packed. Everything's, I'm standing by the door to head out of the locker room. And it's kind of a written rule of sorts. I understood code between players.

Like if you're ready to go, like you're, you know, you're waiting, you've been there. You're like, you're going to walk out for you and go first. Yeah. And they open the door, give us a green light and he blows over my shoulder, kind of bumps the bag and just passes me. And that's when I looked at Dougie and I went, you're gonna have to come get this guy today. I'm going to kill him. I'm literally going to kill him. And, and, and it's the only time this has ever happened on a tennis court. The only time the doctor was watching from the side of the court and the doctor called

the match. I'm not kidding. No, he, Pernicill didn't ask for a trainer. The doctor was watching and they wrecked. So I've been 13, 11, the breaker. He, he fist pumped me a few times. We start the second set and it's the strangest thing in the world. It's like he, like he couldn't find the ball.

He was like, it was like, he was seeing three. I don't know what he was like. He just, he just looked gone and the doctors came out. His heartbeat was like something in the one eighties and he, and he's breathing fine. So they were like, this match is over. This guy, he doesn't know where he's at. They didn't let him come out of the corner. No, no, no. So they went, laid him on ice. He didn't even shake my hand. I mean, it was like, I'm sitting there like.

Sounded like he wouldn't have recognized you at the time. Well, so they lay him on ice, but I'll give this guy so much props because I was practicing next day and I'm, you know, going at it. And he like walked across five courts and just came over and just said, I never got to shake your hand for that display yesterday. That was like, well done.

Oh, cool. Yeah. He gave me a lot of props for it. I love it. I said, he said, you put me in the

hospital, but I've never heard a tennis player predict that the trainer's going to have to come

get their opponent. Yeah. It was, it was hot that day. It was hot. My shoes melted and literally your bottom of your shoes. That was the rebound ace days where it would absorb the heat so much

that literally your shoes would melt. So going down in Australia, you'd have to, you'd walk down, you know, six steps or five steps, and then you'd have to walk up two or three steps. So it was like, you're standing at the bottom and you're looking at it and it looks like it's this rubber surface.

It smells like burning tires and you see the water. You see like the old, like, you know, I don't know what it's called. You see in the desert and it smells like burning tires. And it's like,

this is going to be. And there was nothing worse than 110 degree day where it starts to rain.

They close the roof and everybody's thrilled for the players. And you're going, no, it's more human. Now it's the worst. Now it's the worst. The ball doesn't jump. Like it's good for the

fans, bad for the players. Horrible. Uh, real quick. Um, cause we've taken too much of your time.

How much are you enjoying the current process of, of labor cup and how much are you going to enjoy getting in the mix with, with, with the guys and being able to retell stories, what you got right, more importantly, maybe what you got wrong. What made you say yes to the labor cup job?

I went and saw it and I heard coaches talk about it. I heard some fans talk about people. I know that went to it. You know, I heard, uh, business people talk about it from a hospitality perspective.

I mean, I called bullshit on all of it. Right. So I had to go see it and you watch those players.

They're legit. I did the same thing. And I'm, I'm came to the same conclusion that I think you're

going to get to. Yeah. The players legitimately take pride and not just trying to beat the other one, not just trying to impress their teammates, but they're actually trying to show them teammates.

I think some things too, like, you know, there's like real intense competition going on.

Captains into it. I mean, hospitality, unbelievable. Just, I talked to a few people when I was there and I said, you know, if I gave you tickets to the quarters of a grand slam or weekend at labor cup, what do you, what do you, what do you take? They said, no, we can labor cup. Cause we know who we're going to see. And we might even seem play doubles. And like, and like, this is like, this is like, it's like, it's like straight, straight to the veins. Like if you love tennis, like this is where, this is what you want to see, you know? So they've really done an incredible job with what

they've built. I mean, Mac and Bjorn done an incredible job. And, you know, as far as what I look forward to, I've already engaged with many of the players. Um, even the other team, you know, a couple of the guys have reached out to me just cause they feel I'm accessible, which I am.

And it's like, and I don't know if I, I wouldn't enjoy telling stories as much as enjoy seeing how they process, trying to, trying to kind of figure that out. And just the smallest thing can make such a difference. And not just in one week in their life, but hopefully in the growth and

trajectory of their career. Well, I can't wait to see it. We're going to, we'll be out there.

Um, producer Mike, that's labor cup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Producer Mike.

Andre. I didn't know how to pronounce his name when we first started the show months ago. Yeah. So you're going to love it. It's going to be great. Um, Andre, um, thank you for coming on the show.

More importantly, thank you for being a mentor to me for a million years. Your foundation is the reason my foundation happens because of a conversation, which you don't remember, um, when we're 17 and basically the gist of it was, there's no time like the present. I wish I would have, you know, done it earlier, which was crazy considering everything that you've done for as many people as, as, as you've done it for. Um, I think the magnetism and this is just me is because there's so much power in not being perfect, but then kind of having that manifest and perfection

sometimes in what you do. And I think owning that is as admirable. I think that's the reason why you've drawn people in, um, for, for as long as you have, you're like almost perfectly imperfect. Um, and so I thank you for coming on serve. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a mentor. Um, I promise you, you've done harder things than, than TNT this weekend. It'll be fun.

That was a pleasure.

Thanks for watching, sir.