Interview Qa Format

Q: Welcome to Served. Thank you for carving this out. I know you're going to Paris. It seems like we weren't getting hardly any of you for a long time, and there was this void. Now we're getting a lot of you. What changed? [00:00:00]

Interviewer: Well, what's up? It's so good to be here. Dude, I mean, let me just start off by saying like props to your contribution to the sport through this format because you are not only like thoughtful, you're insightful, and you're fair, and like your takes are, I really enjoy it. I mean, the sport's better off for it. I'll tell you this. I think my favorite thing, and I've told producer Mike this before, is doing a show and then getting like feedback loops from people I really respect where it's like, you know, we will talk about Zverev's forehand and you'll have this take and I'll have this take and we just start trading barbs. And that I think is like the most fun for me for this entire show is basically it's, you know, a reason for feedback and to kind of engage and get in the weeds on stuff. So we're so pumped to have you. Thanks for carving this out. I know you're going to Paris in a couple of days. We're in South Carolina.

Interviewer: Because you're doing everything. Like I'm reading about like Agassi Sports Entertainment, your partnerships with Julo, with Lifetime, you're the Laver Cup captain. And then after, you know, almost two decades of everyone wanting you to weigh in on tennis in a formal capacity, you're going to fly over to Paris and start and do the last four days for TNT. It seems like we weren't getting hardly any of you for a long time. And there was this kind of void in our sport and now we're getting a lot of you. And no, your words, not mine. Um, what, what changed? Like, I don't want to ask, why are you back? Why are we lucky to have you back?

Interviewee: Well, thank you for the way you phrase that too. I mean, those are kind words. I can't say I look at my life in sort of decades because I'm really not the kind of person who maps out anything, but I sort of follow the ripples. And it was really important to me to stay true to something I promised Steph when we first met, which is like, after she really kind of knew me, it was like, I'm not going to be too busy. I'm not going to be too bored because I'm really dangerous in both scenarios. And, and I think when the kids sort of, you know, that empty nest thing and all of a sudden that chapter, you kind of move into a different season in life. I sort of had this bandwidth and, uh, wasn't quite sure kind of what to do with it. Wasn't stressed about it at all. I found interesting ways to engage. I've always wanted to stay engaged with the sport. Like I've done stuff for people who have been good to the sport, like title sponsors or different things. And I've always tried to be good behind the scenes to the game, but now it's like, I kind of have more bandwidth. And, and that's the problem. Sort of when you commit to something, you can't control the workload because like you do a little bit and then you're, you're in the front of somebody's mind and then you end up doing something else. And it's...

Q: Work begets work, but I mean, it can't be a surprise to you that you've just, I mean, you've been so successful. A lot of us hackers don't have the ability to like choose when to come and go. You've been such an important figure to this game for so long, one of its main crossover stars. You can't be surprised that when you decide to come back, that there's work that follows. [00:03:35]

Interviewee: Well, I don't, I don't see it in context. I think that's where I probably get a little too much credit from maybe you or, or outsiders in the game. Like I don't have a perspective of myself in context with the game. You know, I try to be as authentic as possible. You can do math well in shit times, right? At least it was authentic. So like I, that's how I engage. It's, it's so real-time that I'm starting to realize the implications and I'm getting the data now of what choices mean in a whole new arena, but, but I'm comfortable as long as everything's in balance, generally speaking, and, you know, it really is.

Q: How do you feel about going over and working at, at the French Open? [00:04:20]

Interviewee: That's a tough question for a guy like me. I mean, I think if there's a better question, what are you excited about and what are your stressors? Well, I didn't mean to judge it as better or worse or not a good or bad, but it's, what's tough for me is like, I have my own process when I care about something and I do care about contributing if I choose to do something. And so my stresses are quite honestly doing it, you know, doing it, adding, right. Contributing, not, not, not be, not, not distracting or, or not sort of lowering the bar of any kind. So I want to do it well. And I have my own tortured process in doing it. It's not, it's not unfamiliar with how I played the game. Uh, so am I looking forward to going? I'm never looking forward to my skin being stretched. I'm there's something I, I begrudge it, you know, like, Oh God, here we go. It's going to hurt. I'm going to stretch my skin. But then I settle in and then I'm usually glad I did it.

Q: It's funny. Cause we've been, you know, trading some texts about it, or we'll be watching something and we'll start trading. And I can assure you whatever stresses you have about doing it, nobody else has for you. Like, like ask a good question, put you in front of a microphone. It's never been, it's never been an issue for you, at least not, not to us. [00:05:13]

Interviewee: Yeah. Uh, uh, well, uh, here it is all of a sudden, right? I can't even find a word. Just you say that it's a whole different thing when you're, you know, around your peers and you're around the game in such a real way. And it's meant such a significant part of your life, you know, and you've had sort of this big, you know, this, this conflicting relationship with the sport and you've accomplished a lot and you've failed a lot and then you've accomplished a lot and then you're, and then you're gone and then you do something in a whole different arena and then you come back to it. I mean, I could let you inside my head on that level, but it does, it does kind of stress me out. I mean, um, you called me like your, I don't know, man, I'm sitting across from you. I was like, so cool. Like we competed against each other. We, you know, we live the same hamster wheel of life of sorts. And now we get to sit here and bullshit about it. It's like, I mean, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty honored to be here.

Q: That's nice of you. Um, one tournament that I'm in, and obviously it's the time of the year and you're going over to cover it. But one tournament that I kind of want to dive into on, on a little bit of a deeper level is, is your run at Roland Garros in '99. Right. And I felt like it was, you automatically, anything you want to share before we get to do it? [00:06:08]

Interviewee: I know just that I should have lost that tournament four times.

Q: But, yeah, so, but it was, it was an interesting kind of inflection point in your career. Uh, you might say you were, you, you come back from playing challengers. '98 was fine, but not by your standards, fine. Right. And then, you know, '99, I talked to BG. He said you hadn't played tennis in like seven or eight days going in. You hit the ground before, uh, you mentioned, uh, you lost like three or four times you were down, you know, a set and setting something to Squilari and then four, four, one, and then two points away against Clamont. Two sets. The one down four or five, below 30, it's a winner. And they called it out by getting an overrule. That would have been triple match point. He ends up cramping in a 12 deuce game, the next game. And I beat him six. So in the fifth Moya six, four, four, one, two breaks. Yep. And then you get Herbaty who you'd lost to in Miami, you know, two months before. And then the final, I mean, but let's, let's, let's level set the historical context of, of this tournament. Any grand slam for any player is the most important thing you're doing up to that point. Right. It's just, they all take on kind of their own thing. Looking back and you can say, you can, we can be objective. I wasn't ready for that one. [00:06:55]

Interviewee: I was ready for this one. This is what happened there, but I wasn't actually able to be super objective going in. I was in the business of lying to myself. I'm ready. I can do this. I can win this. Yeah. Whatever it, uh, might be, but that one specifically, it was for the career grand slam for the career golden grand slam. You hadn't been in a semi in a major since '96, I think at the US Open. There was something that needed to happen to kind of rejuvenate your career on the level that you knew. Right.

Interviewee: Yeah. No question. So, um, yeah, '97, I went from which the year before, don't underestimate how tough this was. You say it was average. And it was from a grand slam performance perspective, but I went from one 41 in the world to number six. No, it was a joke. I mean, yeah, that, but that, that wasn't because I was doing well in big tournaments. That's because I made up my mind that I need to climb back from one of the lowest points in my, in my, in my life. And, and I just went after it with full intensity week after week after week, you know, small tournament, big, didn't matter. I was just, I lost round of 16 pretty much in every slam, if not earlier. Um, and then I start '99 and it's like, you have those, now your questions go at one 41 in the world. Your questions are, can I really even do this anymore? Then you get to number six in the world and then you're confronted with, well, I can, but I haven't been here in years. So now I had this whole nother level of intensity and pressure to deal with. And I was, and I kind of failed miserably at it. Right. Like, like I went into the '99 Australian open and, and had a real curve thrown at me with my like first wife at the time, but we can skip over that if you want. Uh, and, and it was like, I just, I tapped out mentally. Um, and again, had an early loss and I went, I got a shoulder injury. I went to the clay season, not having a good hard court season, lost first round to Kicker's again. So for me and the way my game was maybe a bit like you, I don't, I don't know, but like, I felt like if I don't do well in the hard court season, it really had a monstrous effect on, on, on my whole year. Cause I did not expect to do well on clay. So I went over to Europe for the clay. It wasn't fantastic, had a shoulder injury. Didn't even think I was going to play Paris. It was the last four of the four grand slams for me to win. Um, it was one I should have. Well, when I say should have, it's been represented that I should have. I was, was favored twice in the finals, almost a decade earlier, '90 and '91. Yeah. So it's like, I was, I was out there going, I'll never have a chance to win this thing. Anyhow, why even play it? And, and my coach at the time, who's yours for a while, Brad, I'll never forget his comment to me. He goes, dude, he goes like, how can you win the French if you don't play? That was, that's how he simplified it.

Q: Like big concepts, just dubbing adaptive where it's like, Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, that makes sense. [00:10:20]

Interviewee: Yeah. So I was like, so I really was looking at '99 French open as a way for me to grind out some sets, maybe grind out some matches, but be ready for the rest of the year where maybe I could do something. So that was a context I went, went in there with.

Q: Talk about that. Cause I did, I did make it too easy. I'm like every, like everything I hate about media, but one 41 flipping your own scorecards, the infamous challenger in Vegas that we all remember where you're flipping your own Naomi referenced it a month ago. Cause she was kind of doing the same thing. Uh, definitely a point for, you know, inspiration for like, it's possible, you know, Andre had some, some humble pie. I can do this too. Right. Like the, and I say that in the most flattering way, but then one 41 to six. Now it's important to kind of point out how we have to reframe things in our mind continuously as tennis players. If you're sitting at one 41 and someone tells you you're going to be six, I don't know the number, 14, 15 months later, whatever it would, whatever it might be, you're thinking, great, done. That's the best. And then you get there and it's like, there's, there's more. There's always this kind of fight of more. And you, you like, once you're six, you almost forget about the one 41, right? Like you're just kind of only as good as your last result. Yeah. Like, but it's people don't see. They see the numbers and they know the talent. They know what they've seen from you before. So in a way we don't give [00:11:18]

Interviewee: enough credit in real time. Right. It's true. I mean, I always kind of look at it like we as tennis players are a car uphill with no brakes, like in our own minds. Right. It's like, and sometimes we forget that, you know, you can't, you know, you can give yourself a little bit of a break if it's, if, if you design it into your overall methodology or your overall game plan. But if you don't do that, you end up getting sucked in that vortex of like torture perfectionism. Cause you're always fighting a ghost. You're fighting something better than you are right now. And that's, that's what I was, that's, if somebody told me at one 41, I was going to get to number six, I signed me up. I'm happy. You would have said I'm happy forever. And then...

Interviewee: No, it's never the case, but that's the, the, the shit part for me with tennis was always that it was like winning and then having to prove it again next week. But the flip side is losing and then getting a chance right to the next week. So it's like anything in life, it's perspective. Yeah. And unfortunately it's tennis, we usually don't have it cause we're so damn young too. Right. I mean, it's another thing to consider.

Q: Yeah. So you, you find, you find your way to that final and you're playing and this, this was, this is, this is a way to show kind of the human side of you that I think people hear about and know. I certainly experienced it. I have firsthand stories that I I'll tell later, but you end up playing a guy named Andre Medvedev, who was a really good player. One Monte Carlo, I think when he was really young, was four in the world. It was kind of the guy that people were pointing to as like that next guy. And then he just kind of, he was really good, but maybe not great. Right. And you had had a conversation with him at the beginning of 14 days, practice week of the French open Monte Carlo week, actually. Oh, it was, it was before the French open, walk us through what happened and then like how, you know, tennis does its magic. And then all of a sudden you guys are battling for, you know, an important title. So, uh, I don't know what the rules are now at tennis, but back then, if you're going to pull out of an event for medical reasons or whatever, you know, to avoid fines and penalties with rankings, you got to kind of see the doctor on site. I was going over there to honestly, to pull out of, uh, Monte Carlo just to just cause I wasn't playing it. So Andre Medvedev was playing Monte Carlo and lost. And so we both looked at that night the same way. I'm in Monte Carlo. I have nothing else to do. I'm going out. He's in Monte Carlo. He has lost. He has nothing else to do. He's going out. So we were out at this, like, it was kind of like a dinner that transforms into a nightclub kind of place. And we're already deep into the nightclub side of things, just sitting there and just, I'm just basically waiting for my flight the next day. And he sits down. I was like, Oh dude, what are you doing? Are you playing here? He goes, yeah, he lost today. He goes, I lost today. And I'm like, you know, bad luck. And he goes, nah, it's not bad luck. I just suck. You know? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, so he starts, he starts walking me through his head, right? Where he's at, he's going to quit tennis. And I'm like, dude, you just, you can't do that. I mean, he goes, why not? I said, well, first of all, you can't quit because changing that scenery is not going to change you quitting on yourself. So that ain't happening. So just get that out of your head. You got to ask yourself what is, what's it take to make you better? And, and, and the first question I have for you is like, why do you think you suck when you can do this, this, this, this, and this? Like, like, like, what's going on, you know? And so I kind of became weird for this like stretch of an hour, I became like this coach to him, you know, just personal coach. Like, dude, get your head out of your ass and use the strengths of your game. And the only weakness you have, you can get around multiple ways. And, and he was like, I mean, he hugged me afterwards and just said, thank you, you know? And sure enough, here comes '99 French open and a draw. And like, we were always playing on opposite days. So I, I, he would see me and he'd come over and be like, man, go get him today. And I'm like, yeah, well done yesterday. And then I'd see him the next day. And I'm like, you know, it's your turn. Get out there. [00:13:58]

Q: At what point does that start getting real for you too? [00:14:01]

Interviewee: Oh shit. That got real, real, like, like quarterfinals. Like I'm going, I look at him, I'm thinking to myself, you looked a lot nicer to me, like a week ago. I didn't think it would actually work.

Interviewee: No, I know. And he just starts laying wood to everybody and semifinals. Here we are. It's like a collision course. And it's like poetic, like, like, I mean, how the irony of it that I'm playing my greatest opponent ever, Andre, like my, my mind, I'm thinking to myself, right? I'm playing my, I coach, I literally coached this guy how to not only beat the people he was bitching about, but how to beat me. Right. And it's like, and here we are playing my biggest match ever against each other. It was just, yeah, it was just a little too much to emotionally kind of process. I was, I not only nervous, I was kind of scared out of my mind to be quite honest.

Q: And then you get down the only cloud in Paris that day finds you for, I don't know, 40 minutes, something like that. Brad yells at you a little bit. Gil gives you a pat on the back. And you go out, find your game, lose a second set, come back from two sets to love in a grand slam final. [00:14:46]

Interviewee: It was worse than that. The first two sets were gone in 47 minutes. I mean, you don't know what it's like to lose in 47 minutes. Cause you can hold serve, right? Like when you lose your way as a guy that played like the way I've lost to you three and one before.

Interviewer: Like that, that was about four. That was about 56 minutes. So if I can't relate to 47, I can relate to 56.

Interviewee: That was San Jose. Do you know, I actually issued four times in a row that day. It's the only time I've ever done it.

Interviewer: No, you've told me.

Interviewee: Oh, okay.

Interviewee: Sorry. So what was, what would help? We were just talking about just walk us through basically coming back. 47. So this was my point in a grand. There's one thing to be in a grand slam final and lose. And I've done that plenty of times. The first three ever played, I did that. Lost many more, you know, and it's a feeling of heartbreak. Like, I'm not sure if I'd rather lose in the finals or lose first round. Cause then at least I can turn my mind towards like, I can use this time back to that tortured perfectionist kind of tennis player mentality. You lose in a finals. It's just like, like you're leaving a loser. Like that's how, that's how he's like, I won six, lost one. And somehow like the heartbreak. Right. So I go out in that tennis court and it was like 47 minutes, two sets down. And it was so bad, I actually looked at the crowd and absorbed it and just said to myself, you can't do this to them. I mean, you got to give them a match somehow, some way. My feeling was one of empathy for the people watching this train wreck, right? This, I mean, this natural disaster take place in front of them. I mean, this absolute carnage, right? I'm dragging people to my funeral for God's sake. And it's like, and then the rains came. And when that rain cloud came, I didn't, I thought it was just delaying the, the, the beat down. It's just, but at least the clock might move and at least the historical scorecard, it's going to say the match lasted an hour and 40 minutes now. Right. But we get into the locker room and as you know, and anytime you want to feel free to interrupt me on this, but you know what it's like when you got 128 guys in the draw doubles mixed. Right. And you got just, just a guy's locker room. Yeah. And then it's like deathly silent and there's two people and it's a rain delay. And like, you know, you can hear the other one breathe in there and Brad comes in and he just, I mean, he just lost his...

Interviewer: mind with me, which isn't his, he doesn't, he's not a yellow. No, he's not a screamer. Like that's for the listeners who wonder, I mean, they've seen our episodes, but he doesn't like never screamed at me. And I probably, I'm sure I give him many, many reasons to. Not a yellow. No, not a yellow at all. I mean, but I was, I didn't even, I couldn't eat that more. I was so nervous. It was my feet were, I was a deer in headlights. Right. So he had to slap me out of it. And he's, and I just looked at him and I was like, what, I mean, this guy's like, he's like too good. And he goes, how the F would you know if this guy's too good? You, you, you, you, you, you're not even, you're not even moving. You're not even like, you're not, you're not even hitting the ball. Like this, like I, here's an idea. If he hits the ball over there, why don't you run? Right. He starts giving me like this. He goes, no, right. You can picture him doing this. It's a good start to be fair. I mean, yeah, but he, this was after he slammed the locker. Yeah. I mean, that's so dry. Like I can't even imagine Brad doing that. Yeah. Yeah. He'd lost his mind. And then he said to me, and by the way, if you're so confused on where to hit the ball, you know, wherever he is, hit it the other direction. Right. He's just like, but for God's sake, how can you tell me this guy's too good? If, if you're not even doing anything, I just like, let's go down swinging. We've been here for, you know, almost 20 days and you've been laying it on the line. You've been leaving your heart out there. I mean, he gave me one of the talks that just, and then I was still convinced heading back on the court. I was just now going to lose different. I was just going to lose on my terms and just start scorching the ball. But in any case, I, it was probably the only time in my life where I was so disconnected emotionally and mentally from what was, from where I wanted to be on the court that I found myself like gathering my senses, sort of digging in and then getting over the hump and then playing in what athletes kind of call the zone. Right. Like I've never, I've gone out there in the zone. I've lost the zone. I've never gone from like Mars to like the zone. Like, and it happened in the one, in the biggest match of my career.

Q: How much of that match, the deer in headlights. And I know we're, we're making it about Medvedev for this conversation as it should be. How much of that was from, and you mentioned it a little bit before you go in your first grand slam in '90 and you're playing Gomez, you're the favorite and it doesn't go your way. The next year against Jim, it doesn't go your way. You go into '99. It's a tournament at that point where your game had kind of shifted to where you were probably better on other surfaces, right? Whereas early in your career, maybe that was your better surface. Was there a sense of this is it, I have to do it now? [00:19:14]

Interviewee: I had the curse of knowing too much at that age, right? And being at the end of myself in '97, where I was sitting in my living room, you know, self-inflicting harm and just going from one to 141. So I had the luxury or the curse of, of just knowing too much. I knew I'd never have another chance at this. I knew I probably didn't even deserve this chance at this. You know, that was the real fight inside of me. Is how, how do you, how do you get, I think that's why nerves come in in any sport. You see golfers as they get older, something happens to their, to their, you know, they just, they know what saving a five foot par putt means, even though it's the middle of the third round, right? It's like, they know it. They've just lived it too many times. I knew what this opportunity was. I knew how important it was that I don't waste it. But at the same time, you're handing me like a suicide pill, right? And I could just, I could just take it and go home. Like that's how I felt. It's like, so I was petrified and I was, I was just dying in front of everybody. So it was, it was, it was a hard deal. I kind of wish I was young and naive and, and just letting it fly. But I lost to, to, to, to Gomez where I was favored in the finals of French. I then went to the US Open 1990 lost where I was big time favorite. He was like, like, who's this guy? He's seated 12. Yeah. And then I went back to the French against Courier. So that, that feeling is, is an intense one. I even told Jim in '93, when he beat me in the semis or '90, yeah, '93 beat me in the semis. And then he beat Courier in the finals. That was '92. '92, '92. I told him in '92, after he beat Courier, he came in the locker room at Wimbledon and, you know, respectfully went over to congratulate him. But I added this little bit, which is like, like respect for just being favored and just going out there and just like taking care of business. Like I, I, I admired that because it was so not who I was. And it was, he was so able just to go to work, you know, and I was so unable to do that.

Q: It's interesting. Cause that leads me into kind of another conversation. I have these, I'm going to move order here, but '88, make a couple semifinals of the only two grand slams you played. You didn't play Australia cause apparently you didn't like the conditions down there. [00:21:07]

Interviewee: I only missed, I only missed 10 of them.

Interviewer: You'd have ripped off four out of five, but yeah, you might, you just life advice. Maybe you should have played those.

Interviewee: So, I mean, it's just more, I'm not that insecure. I'm not like my wife, for God's sake, who is so insecure multiple times.

Interviewer: So insecure, not just beautifully humble. Three in the world, you've become world famous, right? You've, you've basically taken the sport that Mac and Connors have, you know, kind of lifted into the mainstream, but then even taken it a step further. There's every ad campaign that comes. So you're more famous than people who have won a lot more at that point. And then I've always wondered, and especially as we, you know, Americans were playing against Americans, but then like a story that doesn't get talked about ever now. And it did at the time, you know, history is easy when it works out for everyone. Chang comes in and wins out of nowhere in '89, when he's 17, you know, and then, uh, we mentioned, uh, Pete in 1990 over you comes out of nowhere wins. Then Jim beats you in a final in '91. And then all of a sudden we're sitting here in '92 and these three guys have won and you haven't yet. And you were kind of the first one that was actually burdened with, with, with the expectations to kind of continue on with, uh, you know, Mac and, and Connors and that whole, that whole deal. Is that something that, that you thought about? Was it important to you? Did it matter that they were Americans? Did you care about other people's expectations? Were you aware? What was the fame versus not winning dynamic like? What was that whole kind of four years? [00:22:10]

Interviewee: Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a lot right there. Let me start with this. It's like, it's like the Peloton, right? You got four guys, right? You have to work together. You have to, you have to help each other believe they can win also too, right? Like I helped them believe that we can do it. I turned pro first and I was actually succeeding, you know, really succeeding on some level, you know, that made them believe, well, well then I can do it. Right. And then like Chang comes in and says, well, I can win a slam, you know, wins it. And then like Pete's like, well, I can do that too. Then Jim's like, well, I can not only win a slam, I can be number one. And meanwhile, like, yeah, I definitely went from leading to, you know, second place in the, in the Peloton to like third to like fourth and then just fighting to keep drafts. Right. I'm just like, just trying to not let everybody run away, but I was coming off a generation where Americans didn't, they didn't really, I mean, besides maybe Vitas and Mac, but Vitas is never competing for number one in the world. Connors and Mac never really got along. Right. And then, you know, like me, Pete, Courier, Chang, I don't think there's anything more classic than watching us on the same Davis cup team, you know, like the dinner room becomes like a Fellini movie. It's, it's like, it's crazy. Everybody sort of has their own thing and it's so individual. And it's so like, we're trying to be a team pretending like we're a team, but we just really want to be better than you. Cause if we're better than you, then I'm, that means I'm number one. And then you throw Mac in the mix, who was still a factor. Right. It was just, it was, it was crazy, but that's why I envied your generation so much. Right. I mean, like I looked at you and Marty and John and Eisner and, you know, the Bryans and, and, and others that you guys, like, you guys were like, you're like the Aussies or like the French or like, you know, you guys actually went out and sat in the other one's box and supported them during the match. You know, it was like, you guys were like, I, like, I never experienced that. Me, Pete, Jim, Chang, we're fighting to be number one in the world at the other one's demise. So you always felt that edge. And so what did it do to me in real time? As they started achieving way more than me, it made me feel worse about myself, quite frankly. And that, that, that heat and that pressure was two folds, right? It was, it was burdensome, but it was also a sneaky accelerant. It was a sneaky motor. It was a sneaky, like, cause you know, I, I've always sort of have fought tennis like an underdog. It's the way I was raised, you know, it was circumstances I had to go against and, and they just, they just raised the stakes and, you know, in some strange way I used it. And you were obviously always going to win your first major at Wimbledon.

Interviewer: So that was a given. Yeah.

Q: But walk us through, like, it's just, there's so many parts of your stories that are, or that of your story that just don't make a lot of sense. Right. And then you start putting in the human element and you start layering over, you know, certain factors in life. And then in it, in it, it kind of makes sense at some point, but you've got to kind of dig a little bit. Like you played in '87, you didn't play Wimbledon for four years during this whole upswing of, of, of fame and success. And the whole, you know, Jean Short, Moulet, the whole, the whole, the whole deal. You didn't play Wimbledon again until '91, took four years off. Then you come out and win in '92. Like, how does your brain click to where you're obviously not playing it because you think you're, I'm, I'm, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but obviously they make me wear stuff I don't want to wear. And I'm a baseliner. Like all these guys are hitting bombs and coming in and correct me where I'm wrong. But then when do you feel like, Oh, you know what? Not only should I play it, I should, I can, I think I can win it. Like that's a, that's a, that's a fucking lifetime of, of mental gymnastics for most. And it seems like you're able to like, once you can get it in your grasp, then you feel like you can actually wrestle with it. Right. Yeah. What is that process? [00:24:53]

Interviewee: I've been known to be the person that paints myself in the corner in order to, you know, find a way out. I mean, um, let's, let's, let's get to the heart of it. Right. I mean, cause you're saying, how do you make sense of it? I never chose tennis. Right. I, from day one, from day one, right. News alert, most controversial, controversial thing in my book came on page one that I hated tennis. All right. Now that's not, I'm not making that up. Like I saw what it did to my family. I saw what it did to relationships. I, I, it just, it always meant too much. I always resented it. Right. It didn't mean that I wasn't good at it, but you can be motivated through two things in your life, fear or love. And it was fear that was driving me. Right. It's fear of my father. Last of youngest of four children. It was just fight, get sent away from home, Nick voluntary tennis Academy. It was like, and it's like lord of the flies with four hands and backhands. I mean, teenagers raising each other, no adult supervision, this place is of hell. I want to burn it down. I mean, like rebellion kicked in at the age of 13, told my dad to piss off basically by then too. Right. Like, I'm, I mean, when I tell you I'm living a real life rebellion and my anger is directed at tennis, misdirected, but nevertheless directed at tennis. I mean, rage is an interesting thing, you know, and I chose to use my intuitiveness and my resentment of tennis. And that rage is something that I knew I didn't want to ever use to hurt people. So I, I had to direct it somewhere. So I directed it, you know, at the easiest thing in front of me, the thing that was responsible for the misery of my whole life at the time, which I concluded was tennis. And so getting out of the Academy was about survival. It was about if I, here's how I can get out, win, you know, win like just, okay, now I'm pro and now I'm out in this man's world with this teenage rebellion. And then everybody's telling me, sticking microphones in my face, asking me who I am, asking me to make sense of why I'm wearing jean shorts. Well, I'm wearing jean shorts because it's a big fuck you to the whole world. It's like, that's how I felt at the time. It's a reality. Right. And it's like, so there was this, there's this push pull that was always going on in my decision-making. I didn't play Wimbledon because I felt like I was playing in a giant like dollhouse. I mean, it's like on Bambi on ice. It's like grass. I mean, I mean, you could tell me to smoke this stuff and I understand it, but to play on it, I mean, like how do you play, how do you play on this surface? You can't even stand on, I didn't even get to practice it. They treat you like a stranger in your own club. And I mean, it's like in your own tournament and it's like, you're not seated. You can't go over there. Right. And you can't practice at Wimbledon because I'm 16 years old going, you know, anti-establishment, anti-everybody. It's like, and I'm in a man's world trying to pay bills. Right. So it's like traveling the world with my brother, just not being begrudged in the locker room. At least that's my perception, but nevertheless, I start to then not go to the locker room, which makes them think I'm begrudging my peers. And then it's just, everything was just compounding, compounding. So my whole life has been about, I didn't play, I didn't play Australia because I didn't, I wanted something normal and that's called Christmas and that's called New Year's. I mean, that's how simple it was. That's as simple as you just, that was, that was it. Oh, as little as I could play and get away with it. I was, I was thrilled.

Q: It's amazing to me though. And we'll, we'll move on to, to something more fun and fluffier, uh, on the other side of it, but it is weird. Cause I think because people talk about it and then you get the generations, like it's, you, you're allowed to talk about it now and it's allowed to be okay. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's Naomi talking about it. It's, you know, Roger going about his business in a very different way. That was less tortuous that I've like, I've said, I don't have an ounce of jealousy for Roger for what he accomplished. My jealousy is for his ease of operation. Like he was able to be his best self daily. He was allowed to like do all the things. [00:27:48]

Interviewer: So we think. Yeah. So we think, but even so I would, you would have seen it some way, shape or form in the toughest moments, like a crack. It's not meant to question it. It's just meant to say there's a lot we probably don't know too.

Interviewee: That's probably right. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a million things, but I think because someone actually like rips the bandit off and has a conversation about it, I do think it matters to the people following. So congratulations for that. And kind of walking through that door.

Q: Um, one thing I want to do, cause it would be malpractice if I didn't just turn this into what I want to know about. Um, now cause I have you here, your brain, the way you view matchups, the way you break things down. Um, I expect it'll be on full display at, you know, on TNT set the bar low. Thank you. I'm not worried. I already set the bar. I'm not worried about you. I know you're going to worry about yourself, but I'm, I'm not worried. I'm just going to go through some names, lots of which I haven't played. And I just want you to tell me what was a nightmare about them and where you thought you could make progress. Let's start with someone that I never played. Uh, Matt's Vlandere. [00:28:30]

Interviewee: Well, that's a generational question, right? Cause when I came into the game, the first time I ever played him, I was 15 years old. I lost to him second round after qualifying at La Quinta, which is, you know, the Palm Springs term. And I won my first round of main draw and I played him. I lost one and one and came off the court and told my brother, like, I want to play that again. I can beat that dude. Like he can't break...

Interviewer: It wasn't that close. Yeah. But my point is, is that he hit the ball. Like I was the first one to come into the game, but everybody that gets the number one in the world brings something the game hasn't seen on some level, right? You did it. I mean, everybody who gets the number one and has any modicum of, of staying there or winning slams, I always do something that the game has to adjust to. And for me, it was about taking the ball off both wings, whether it was low or high and being able to hurt the ball and be able to do it as early in the court as I wanted to. Right. So the game hadn't seen it. So somebody like Mats Wilander, who won three of the four grand slams in 1988, beat me in the semis of Paris and the semis 6-0 in the fifth, because I cramped. Like I came off the court going like, I could have ran him all day. I mean, like all he's doing is right. So you felt like it wasn't about tennis at that point? No, physically. I mean, not to say I would have won if I didn't cramp, but my point is, is that that's the way that's the generational gap. So playing Mats Wilander, when I started to, let's say, you know, beat him was just a fundamental of like, he, he made, and respect to Mats, because he's, the guy never got tired. He got as fast as wind. The guy wouldn't miss a ball for hours. I mean, total respect for everything he's done, but like, he made me feel like there should be weight classes in tennis. That's how I kind of thought of it. It was like at 18, 19, 20 years old. So for me and the way I played the game matched up against him was literally about driving the train through main street. It was just like, you just deal with what I'm bringing.

Q: I'm going to get back to that. Cause I think there's a weird end around with, with someone else for the dental list. I'm finally excited that you, a story that I had heard over drinks for a couple of years, finally made its way mainstream with the Becker tongue situation where you, but like talk, talk, talk about Boris. Like I went back and watched that documentary and it's happy he's doing well again, obviously. But I mean, that guy was like, you watch him in the highlights from '85. He looked different than everyone else. You talk about someone that like shook the fabric of the sport, man child, man child. Yeah. Right. With Boris. I mean, [00:30:07]

Interviewee: I mean, he's, he's, I don't know if he's an underrated athlete, but he's a greater athlete. Even if he didn't underrate him. I mean, he's a better athlete when you face him than when you watch him and respect what he's actually doing. I mean, he's six, three, he'd crouch in a position at net and you think like you have this big target and he could swallow that space up like nobody, even if it meant rolling on the ground to cover it under control. Right. And if you couldn't deal with his serve, that's a real problem. I mean, the one thing about him that was, that was tough. And I had an inroad to his game because of the serve, but you know, he could absolutely drive backhand second serve returns or forehands either direction. He, from the deuce court, if you serve body backhand, he could pull that thing and come flying in with his athleticism. He could hit the off one bit like Lleyton Hewitt would, except offensively and move forward. Right. So now you're on the full one trying to pass him forehand. He could do the same thing. He could pull it or he could go offline and just come flying in with total athleticism behind it. Nothing stressed me out more than somebody that could stress out my second serve. Right. It's like, it's like, you just feel like, okay, what's the deal today? So when I played him, my first serve percentage had to go way up and I had to have something else. I mean, Boris to this day probably denies that he did that with his tongue, but then I would challenge him with this comment, which is like, are you actually admitting I can beat you 10 times in a row? No. I mean, I mean, let's be serious. I mean, like you're like Boris Becker for God's sake. I mean, how, how's that even possible? And less. So the guy, no, talk about somebody that, that, that added flair. And I mean, he, he came into the game, not just on the court, but also off the court. He changed the marketplace from the standpoint of sponsorships and he could take the oxygen out of a room, you know, pretty, pretty quickly. Uh, Edberg.

Q: Eddie, uh, he was, he was classic. So Edberg, um, yeah, you know, when I, when I played Edberg, I can tell you now looking back more than I really understood it at the time. But the thing that would always surprise you about Edberg is you thought he had this, um, real weak forehand, right. Which it wasn't as better. It wasn't his best shot, but it was like, it was like he would just look weird, but he could flight it and kind of put it in corners. And yeah, he could knuckle it, right. Like he would knuckle it. So you have to generate a ball off nothing. Right. So nowadays with the spin and the strings, it might be easier to manage, right. Getting the ball down if he comes forward or what have you. Not as easy with pro blend. Not as easy with pro blend. You could, I mean, you could reel in a Marlin with that stuff. Um, but with, but what he would do is he, you know, I would go after his forehand and then, and then all of a sudden he would use the pace that you give them to his forehand, he'd find a hole for it. Then you go safe to the backhand side of the court. And he would just let this off backhand fly up the line. That was, that was the most, his volleys might be the greatest of all time. As far as just fundamental first volley. His first volley was like just rocks. I like, I don't know if he's ever missed the first volley. Like, like if he hit a kick serve, he came in and you were off the court and you buried that thing in a shoe. And he had that court to work with. He's not missing that. Like 99 out of a hundred times, he's not missing that, that volley. I mean, I mean, Pete could do some incredible things at net, but he can miss that volley. You know what I mean? Edberg's not missing that volley, but his shot that was most underrated was you hit a routine ball to his backhand and he would just hit it routine back. So you're always managing that cost risk. Why do something you don't have to do? Then the next thing you know, you go, okay, well, I'm not, I don't need to really take risks. So I'm not going to. And then he would just hit this off one-handed backhand, like flyer, like line and come in behind it. And he was one of the hardest guys in the world. [00:32:19]

Q: How did the way Becker and Edberg cover the net differently? Cause I mean, you said you couldn't find space against Boris, but Edberg, the footwork was more intense. And whereas Becker felt like he was tumbling towards things a little bit. And he's just watching. You're fair enough. Becker, Edberg read the play and he was there 85% of the time. It's cause he like, he read it. Like he, Boris waited till you hit it and then would explode to the spot and then would just, then would just swallow the space with sheer athleticism, size and, and ability to lay out for it. Right. So he's taking athletic six, three and turning it into, you know, six, six was good hands. Right. So that's how I would differentiate the two. I always felt to me, like I went to pass Becker. He was waiting for me to hit it. And I felt like Edberg was like maybe a step ahead on the percentages of where I'm going to hit it. [00:32:55]

Interviewee: Talk about Mac. You know, Mac had an incredible ability to offset power, right? To neutralize power. So like he, he could keep the ball down with no pace, which kind of affected the way I came into the game. Cause I came into the game kind of going through guys and Mac was that generation where I felt like, you know, maybe I can go through this guy, but I couldn't quite go through him because the balls he would hit were not only not much pace to it, but they were always low. He never, you felt like you were lifting on every ball that you hit against the guy. Plus his ability to cut angles was a joke. His speed was way underrated too. I mean, he was, he was quick. I mean, the guy had unbelievable footwork and he took unbelievable angles towards, to the ball. I mean, especially in the forecourt, but even in the backcourt, I mean, if he shoveled a forehand from the lefty side, right, he shoveled a forehand, you know, towards down the line and gets bad direction and you crank it cross, he's already committed to an angle at that ball and he's button that thing down and coming in. So now you're, you're actually behind, you're having to lift it and having to generate. And he's on top of the net. You always feel like you're lifting the ball against him.

Q: Talk about Connors. Um, be nice. Hmm. Listen, I mean, I've, I've Connors. When I looked at him as an 18-year-old, I saw somebody I recognize in the sense that he always had his team around him. He always seemed like he had this, um, appropriate, um, how would I call it? Appropriate paranoia about him, right? Like, like he didn't trust anybody that wasn't on his team, but he trusted his team. Immensely. And I, there's something I identified with that. I mean, he, what he did for the game was incredible. And, and I mean, Jimmy surprised the hell out of me when I played him by, by his ability, which would have been later on in his career. Yeah. It would have been later on. Although years later, he was still got to the semis in the open, pretty incredible. I was, I was, I was really amazed at Jimmy's ability to, to take pace and use it against you. Right. So if I hit a hard ball to his backhand, he would maybe stay with one cross to my forehand. Then I hit it hard again to his backhand. And then he would, he would take a two handed early, like inside out shovel, like, like, like a, like a two handed side spin shot, like line. And he would come in, he was only like five, nine, but man, he only came in on his terms. And when he came in, he charged, talk about a guy that never missed a volley. I mean, he made sure. I mean, he turned his racket into a, into a sand wedge. [00:34:49]

Interviewer: Do you think we have this thing in tennis where if someone's a baseliner, that means we don't give them credit for the volley? Cause like the three of the best volleyers I've ever seen are watched Connors, Hewitt and Rafa.

Interviewee: Thank you for saying Rafa.

Interviewer: Right. Like completely.

Interviewee: Like, but we were so lazy if they're like a baseliner, that means they don't like, just cause they don't come in a lot. It doesn't mean they're not golden when they get there.

Interviewee: You know what I would have loved to have seen. I would have loved to have seen Rafa play a match where he had to come in 68 times. He still would have won it. Just, just, just to watch what he could come up with to set that record straight.

Q: Jim Courier. [00:35:24]

Interviewee: Yeah. Jim was the first guy that was a bigger bully than I was. I mean, you know what I mean? Like he was, he was when I realized the game was changing, you know, Jim had a heavy serve. Don't kid yourself. His second serve was, was heavy. It was hard to hurt his second, hard for anybody. I mean, he had a winning record against Krajicek. Krajicek couldn't even come in behind the second serve. You know what I mean? He had a real heavy second serve and he had a big first punch, like no tomorrow. I mean, this forehand inside out or inside in was monster. He was always looking to take it early. And although his backhand was awkward and I could imitate it at will and probably tell you his grip just by how many times I saw it from the side of the net. But if it was in his pocket, I mean, he could bat that thing. And it was like a flight, it was like a flighted kind of, it would like sail. It was low and you're going, please go long. Why do I have this feeling like it's not going long? It's just, I mean, it eats you. If that ball bounces, it's like, so it's like, I, I, you, you want to get it to his backhand and he, he squeezed that court as good as anybody. I mean,

Interviewer: You had to go out. Even with your ability to hit it to both corners, it's still like it was, it was heavy enough to where you didn't feel like you could take shots there.

Interviewee: Um, you know what I, I didn't, when Jim did most, his beating on me, um, was before Brad and I didn't really have a coach. So like, I, like, I, I mean, so I, nobody ever told me go after his forehand to open up his backhand. So he couldn't get that ball in his pocket. Right. Like nobody ever told me that, but, but even if somebody told me that he's still hard to execute against, cause he's still going to get that first ball, every chance you don't hit it. Perfect.

Q: Michael Chang. [00:36:42]

Interviewee: You know, here's a great thing I'll say about Michael. Maybe one time I've ever played him where the second set was easier than the first, it did not matter what scoreline was happening. That match was going to get harder as a match went on. He was a problem solver. He was a competitor. Um, he had incredible speed defensively, but I never minded his speed defensively. If I could get on top of the point early, he was content to run. And like, I have a great relationship with somebody on the court if they like to run and cause I like to make them run. Right. So that was my deal. But he also had this incredible offensive ability to take the real estate if you hit the ball a little short. So he would, he would burn you so many times. He could, he could, he could, he could thump a forehand if it was hanging. And he'd get up to it quick and he'd get under every volley. So even if he hit it off forehand, off a serve out wide, off forehand and in, you get the ball down. He never quit with his legs. He was always under that ball. And it wasn't an easy guy. It wasn't an easy guy to pass because he never came in when it was just about his size. He always came in when he could use his legs. And so he kind of presented challenges. I don't know what our career was. He beat me four times, but every time it was like in big matches. I mean, he beat me in some big matches because I knew, and that's another thing he wear on you. You knew he was punching in the clock.

Interviewer: And it's a tough one. Like I had that with Hewitt, like you, you knew going in that it was just, you might win, you might lose, you were going to feel horrible at some point in the afternoon to where it's like, this guy's, is he, he's tougher than I am. He's fitter than I am. He's like going to ask all these questions. He's not going to blow me away, which make, it's almost this weird pressure mechanism where it's like, okay, it's up to you, which has its own like set of, you know,

Interviewee: getting the wheels turning. Oh yeah. And the gravitational pull of, you know, being so close to the finish line yet the opposite, like opposite magnet feeling against him, you're trying to close out a match and somehow you go, why does the finish line feel so far away?

Q: Uh, talk about Lendl. [00:38:18]

Interviewee: Um, so Lendl brought a lot of physicality. He was the first one to bring real training and like, I can play for seven hours kind of thing to the, to the tennis court. But Lendl needed somebody who struggled with his, his slice. His slice backhand. He needed somebody that struggled with that. No, it wasn't. I was, I, you know, I mean, he got me early in my career, but that shot is a shot. I kind of looked at as opportunity, you know, but if somebody can't handle that hard, you know, like, let's just call it like a Todd Woodbridge kind of, you know, stick slice and they lift that ball to that guy. I mean, his, his, his, his serve was underrated. God, he could hit his spots on his serve.

Interviewer: I, it's funny. You say the Lendl thing. That's how I felt against a lot of them. If I could get away with a chip to switch directions and like move it around, I was fine. But then the three, the three people you needed to beat to win a major had no issue with it. Like, and it was a pro or if they like chip better, the three people you need to beat to win a major had no problem with anything. I mean, for God's sake, we're going to get to them. Uh, but even like Murray. So like I would, I would, I would chip to Murray and all of a sudden he would chip it back chip short. Yeah. It was a better chip. It was a Dr. Feelgood chip. And it was better chip. And it was going to worse spots. Like, you know, it was going to my back instead of his backhand. But that's the way, that's kind of the way I felt. If I can get away with the chip, then I'm beating whoever was across the net 99% of the time. Yeah. And they were like, you were to Lendl and it took away that option. And it was like, I'm, I'm having to deal with this. Now I got a really whole serve. Now I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it seriously, uh, Lleyton Hewitt. We're going to another generation. Yeah. Lleyton Hewitt. I mean,

Q: Gosh, he was a, he was a puzzle for me for first couple of times I played him. It was a puzzle. He could absorb pace like nobody. And if you gave him pace and tried to go through him, do it. You can beat him cross court. Do it at your own peril. Do it at your own peril. But I tell you one thing, um, if you gave him nothing, he gave you nothing. So it became this real, like the chip would see against him. My, it wasn't back in the backhand. Cause I could just chip, right? You could get away. I mean, I don't, I don't own that shot, right? I don't have that shot, but you know, you know how hard it is for me to resist torquing a backhand cross court. I mean, just, you know, how much discipline it takes to play Lleyton Hewitt for four hours and not try to rip a backhand. When I see space. I mean, the only time you could go aggressive on Lleyton was one time a point. Like it's like go aggressive line. And if his shoes are screeching and he sounds like he's out of position, don't believe it. And then if he gets himself back into the point, start again, but do not try to hit two big ones in a row. No, don't do it. Like he absorbed pace. Well, plus, you know, he, he was one of the first ones to really turn defense and offense. Like, like he was one of those defenders that can go from like scrapping, scrapping. Then you don't quite do something. And he's gone from the forehand corner inside the court on the backhand corner. [00:39:45]

Interviewer: That's the thing with like their defenders. I mean, all the great defenders that we talk about throughout, we're talking about Chang. We're talking about Mats could come in. We're talking about Lleyton. They had the ability and they could recognize the ball to go get their lunch. Also, they would almost lull you into it, but it wasn't going to be predictable. Right. They kind of came on, on their terms. And some of them could have done it more than others. Right. But Lleyton, I think was the first one that said, careful, I'm on defense. And if you're not careful, I will get on offense. I feel like Mats was saying to himself, I'm on defense and I don't know how you're going to end this point, but you're going to have to have 15 more shots. Right. Lleyton was the first one I ever played that could just get on defense. And he's actually in his mind getting fed up with that and looking for an opportunity to take that point over and using his speed offensively as much as defensively, sometimes two or three times inside a point.

Q: And then the one that I kind of think is almost like the prototype for these, all these guys that are now six foot six that can run, defend, and it looks natural. It doesn't look awkward. It's not like, you know, like Mark Philippoussis was six foot seven when you played, but he looked like he moved, moved like he was six foot seven. He could punch in the face, but he [00:40:36]

Interviewee: was Marat Safin. Marat Safin was, first of all, he's six, five, right? Massive. Yeah. Yeah. Massive. So Marat Safin was my, let's call it my Daniil Medvedev, right? Like big, tall dude, served from the trees, monster backhand, better forehand. This forehand was, I mean, he absolutely could dismiss any ball in the midcourt off both wings, moved well. He was like, like, I remember when he beat Pete at the open, I was, I was watching that. And I said, if you were to build a tennis player, how do you not build that guy, right? First six foot five guy to just like leave, leave tracks on a hard court and, and just snap balls off that are sitting midcourt and could serve out of the trees and stop you from being in any service game. And by the way, he can just absolutely pound your second serve. I played him at the, at the Australian open one time in the semifinals, should have won the first two sets, lost six and six, then beat him seven, five, finally broke him seven, five, six, one. I thought I was running away with it. Cause he was going to do like that, that escape parachute, you know, Russian thing that happens occasionally with him. Right. And he ended up beating me in five, but he could play. I was so sore from just the first move defending my serve first or second. It was like you, I would hit a quality first serve and there was a lot of lunging. I mean, his return was, I mean, a toothpick in his hand. It looked like