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Oprah Winfrey & Arthur Brooks discuss their new book "Build the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier." Learn how to define happiness, manage emotions, overcome envy, and find purpose for a fulfilling life.
Published September 18, 2023
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Oprah Winfrey
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Interviewer: The Oprah Winfrey Show is a front row seat to unhappiness. Interviewee: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, I learned it was my greatest classroom. I've never had a therapist, but I had so many therapists on the show. I got my therapy from the Oprah show and I learned so much. So when I first started having conversations with families from, you know, different walks of life, that's when I came to understand that there is a common bond that we all share, that we're all really seeking the same things. And knowing that that thing was happiness came from the show. And every day I would sit and talk with the audience for a half hour, sometimes 40 minutes. A producer would be like, oh my God, when is she going to let go of the audience? What I really want is to have a conversation with the audience to see why did you come? And what did you get from the show? And did you benefit at all? And why do you watch all of that? So 10 years in the audience became my focus group. I would always ask people, what do you want? What would it take to make you happy? And most people, when I say, what do you want? They just say, I just want to be happy. Tell me what that looks like. And as the years progressed, women were more able to identify what that specifically was. But when I first started asking that question in the mid-nineties, they would always just say, well, I just want to be happy. I just want to be happy. Well, what does that look like? Define it. Define happiness. Define it. And what I realized is that most people have never defined it. And then they'd say, well, I want my kids to be happy. Well, that's your kids. But what do you want? And so being able to answer specifically what that looks like for you is the beginning of being happier.
Interviewer: You wrote in the book that the heart of the Oprah Winfrey Show was that it was a classroom. Interviewee: Mmm, yeah. And I think the heart of me is really a teacher. One of the big lessons I learned from the show was this, that after every conversation, no matter who it was, in one form or another, that person would say, how was that? Was that okay? Mm-hmm. That happened the first time Beyoncé taught me to twerk. Yes. At the end of it, she handed me the mic and she goes, was that okay? I went, you're Beyoncé, it's very much okay. I learned to twerk. And then it happened when I was interviewing a father who had abused his children. At the end of it, he goes, was that all right? Mm-hmm. Obama's like, is it good? Is it good? Yeah. And so what I started to see was that there was this thread that connected all of the conversations and that what people were really saying, they were looking for a validation, like, was that all right? Did you hear me? And did what I say matter? And I just could, I could tell you after every interview, I'm sure it happens to you in one form or another, a person, the people were looking to say, was that okay?
Interviewer: You call it happier-ness. Interviewee: Yeah, I call it happier-ness. Because as Arthur explains in the book, none of us can be happy all the time. But I will say that I have reached a level of enjoyment, contentment, satisfaction, and purpose, that I'm pretty much happy all the time, even though I have negative feelings. And one of the things that I think that he expresses so well in this book is being able to identify your negative feeling versus believing that that is a constant state of mind for you or happiness or unhappiness. So the fact that I have a bad emotion or bad feelings, but can observe those feelings and then change them.
Interviewer: Why do you think we're in a happiness slump in America? Interviewee: Ooh, I will tell you, one of the most profound reasons, I think, is because everybody is looking at other people's social media, what they believe to be other people's lives, which is only a snapshot of other people's lives, and feeling envy about that. And one of the things that Arthur and I talk about in this book is that envy is the great destroyer. The happiness killer. It is the happiness killer. And so any time you, any time you're looking at anything else with envy, you have already killed your own happiness or your ability to be happier in that moment and probably in moments to come. So I, coming from where I've come from, rural Mississippi, never imagining the life that I have, for a long time, I have felt that I had enough, even though I kept getting more. But inside myself, I feel that I am enough, which is one of the great lessons. What is at the root of most people's dysfunction is that you don't think that you're good enough. You don't think that you're worthy. You don't own your own essence and your own power.
Interviewer: You write, one must recognize that the person in control of your happiness is and forever will be you. I wonder, how would you advise, given everything that you've been through in your life and talked about in your childhood, how does one take agency over their life and their happiness? Interviewee: Oh, I love this question. I know this, that many of the things that have happened to you have also happened for you. And that I learned when the crisis or the challenge showed up for me, I immediately would ask, sometimes out loud, but certainly in my own conscious spirit, what is this here to teach me? And how can I get that lesson as soon as possible? And this, I guarantee you, the moment you have the conscious realization of, oh, this is why this is here, showing up to allow me to see whatever that is in your life, it changes for you.
Interviewer: How did you find Arthur Brooks? Interviewee: During the pandemic, I was in search of fuel to keep myself inspired, to keep myself open to possibility, to keep myself hopeful. And I started reading his column in The Atlantic and then looking more and more forward to that column every week on how to build a life. That column was called How to Build a Life. And then I invited him for dinner, and he is the perfect person to have for dinner because you just probe his brain about all the things you've ever wanted to ask about your own emotions and searching for happiness and well-being and all of that. So I am the kind of person, as you know, that believes that life is better when you share it, whether that's bread or information. And I called him up and I said, what you should do, I think, is take all these columns that you've written and put them in a book because I think people would really benefit from having all of that information in one space. And he said, okay, I think that's a good idea.
Interviewer: And I think sort of distilling in so many ways what you've learned all of these years, too, and the ingredients, too, if you're thinking how do I get to happiness or happiness, as you outline in the book, family. Interviewee: Yeah. Interviewer: Friendships. Interviewee: Work. Interviewee: Work. Interviewee: And faith. Interviewee: And faith. Faith meaning not religion, because we're not here to tell anybody about any religion you need to be, but you need a faith in something that's more transcendent than yourself. You need, if that's nature, if that's, you know, a walk in the park, if that's music, if that's art. I don't know how people survive without some kind of spiritual practice or some kind of acknowledgement that you are not the only thing that matters in the world, that there is something bigger than you by whatever name you choose to call that, and that there is the mystery of life, and that you lean into that. That's key.
Interviewer: You have enormous choice to choose whatever you want to do in terms of work, so what was your intention in working with Arthur on this book? Interviewee: My intention was to spread the message that you cannot control all of the external circumstances in your life, but you can control how you feel about those circumstances in your life. And once you recognize that you are the, you, it boils down to the thing that I do when I go to teach in South Africa to my girls. I always teach a class called Life 101. And at the end of that class, I leave them with the poem Invictus, which I learned when I was eight years old. The last lines are, I'm the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. And so what that, taking control of your emotions and not allowing your emotions to control you, taking the will, allows you to be the master of your fate and the captain of your soul. And to do that with greater happier-ness. Yes.
Interviewer: And when we come back, Oprah tells us her first thought every morning. What makes you happy in your daily life? Interviewee: So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so many things. I have trained myself that the first thought is thank you. That is my first thought. And then I move from, what do I have to do? Or what is this day? What day is it? Oh, I'm in New York. I'm talking to Nora later. But my first thought, no matter where I am in the world, is thank you. And that is also my last thought, going to bed.
Interviewer: Is Oprah ever envious? Interviewee: Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. It's just not a part of my... Interviewer: Ever. Interviewee: I can't. Interviewer: Yeah. Interviewee: I'm happy for other people's happiness. I am particularly happy when other women rise. I mean, when I heard you were going to be doing the evening news, I was so happy for you, because I remember when Barbara Walters first did that with Harry Reasoner and how horribly she was treated during that time. And at the time, I was being treated horribly too, you know, by even the local anchor. So for you to be able to sit at the helm in that seat, I'm nothing but happy for that.
Interviewer: You have the gift of letting people see something that they cannot see themselves. Interviewee: Do I? Interviewer: You do. Interviewee: Okay. I accept that. Interviewer: Yeah. I think that's your gift. I mean, that's what you do with this book. That's what you did for me at that moment. Interviewee: I think that's why Arthur and I are so complimentary to each other, because that's what I've been trying to do my entire career, is help people see the fullness of themselves. It's holding up a mirror so you can see. Even when you're looking at the most dysfunctional people that I'm talking to on the show, you can say, well, I'm not that and I don't want to be that. And oh, if they were able to triumph over that, I could triumph over that. And so now this opportunity to do this through a book and perhaps maybe a podcast or however we can spread the word that your happiness, your happiness is going to be up to you. And it's up to you to be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, and most importantly, the master of your happiness. No matter what, I'm going to be okay. And I think that's what this book helps you get to. No matter what, I can be in control of how I choose to react regardless of the circumstance.
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