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Mike Tyson discusses his life, from boxing fame and wild years to his current ventures in the cannabis industry and personal growth. He shares insights on psychedelics, his transformation, and the challenges of life after intense fame.
Published January 17, 2019
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Mike Tyson
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Interviewer: Three, two, one, boom, and we're live! What's happening, Joe? What's up, Mike? Tom Segura's in the house for a few minutes here to stop by to say hi. I can't believe you never had a cup...
Interviewee: ...of coffee. Never. You want something? No, that might be... no, that might be the most outrageous thing about you is that you've never had coffee your whole life. Interviewer: Never had coffee? No. Did you just drink tea? Interviewee: Never coffee. No. Interviewer: No one ever offered you a cup of coffee? You never went to Starbucks? Interviewee: Never. No. Interviewer: For tea or some donuts? Wow. What about like those... when you... when I was in, you know, when you're in rehab, you always gotta go to Starbucks because the meeting's right outside at Starbucks. You always hang out at Starbucks, right? But never for coffee? You didn't want to try it? Never. Interviewee: That is that how... Interviewer: About like, like girlfriends, wives, like none of them ever like, "Coffee? Drag coffee at home?" Interviewee: I'm sure they have, but I never really... my wife drinks it, and you just... Interviewer: Nothing? Interviewee: Nothing. No. No. Interviewer: Well, I'm so addicted to the stuff. I did all the drugs, you think coffee would be nothing? Interviewee: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, it doesn't make any sense.
Interviewer: ...when did you first try any drugs? Interviewee: Kid. 10 years old, 9 years old. Interviewer: What kind of shit? Interviewee: Smoking and drinking. Right. Then as I got older, I tried acid. Interviewer: How old were you when you first tried that? Interviewee: Probably 11. Interviewer: Wow. Yeah. Really young. Jesus, man. Wow. That's really young.
Interviewer: Wow. But when you were the champ, when you were in your prime, like when you... like when you beat Trevor Berbick, were you doing anything back then? Interviewee: It's drinking a lot. Interviewer: Drinking a lot? Interviewee: Really. Interviewer: Yeah, that's amazing.
Interviewee: Would you go clean for camp? Interviewer: Or like, if it can't just for camp? Interviewee: Yeah. But outside. Interviewer: Like, once the fight's over? Interviewee: Yeah. I'm an animal. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. You were the first guy that I ever used as an example of, uh, to break that old myth that you can't have sex before fights. And I was like, "Well, that's out the window for sure, because you, you would talk about it all the time." You'd be like... Interviewee: Pretty much. Yeah. Interviewer: Your logic made sense, too. You're like, "I don't want to think about it. I don't want to be thinking about sex. I'll just get it out of the way." And it's over with. You have to do it. You have to refuel for the next, um, six weeks. And yes, going with your fight. Do you think that was a myth, that it made you weak? Interviewee: Yeah. I think it's a myth. Interviewer: Yeah. It doesn't seem to make sense. It seems odd.
Interviewer: And then, like, whenever there's the Olympics, you more so than, you know, disintegrate you, I would think. They said... Interviewee: ...that the Olympic, you know, where the athletes stay is just like a fuck fest. Interviewer: Of course. I think so. Interviewee: Yeah, they have the boys and the girls, they're in the same vicinity. Interviewer: Also, probably want to alleviate... Interviewee: ...some anxiety. Anxiety. Freaking out. You're at the Olympics. You know, you're 18 years old. Yeah. And everyone's in amazing shape. Yeah. Stressed out. Stressed out. Yeah.
Interviewer: When you were when you were first coming up and when you were first, uh, like when you were Kid Dynamite on Sports Illustrated, I'll never forget that, man. That was a... your era from like, you know, the the 80s, the late 80s, that era, like it was a big part of my youth, you know? Like you being... Yeah, man. You being the champ. It was like, it was a change of things. Because when Larry Holmes was the champ, as a boxing fan, I loved Larry Holmes. Like, there's that cover. You were 19 years old, right? Interviewee: Yeah. Interviewer: It's nuts. When Larry Holmes was the champ, as a boxing fan, wow. You still got that stuff, man. You can still get those... Interviewee: Yeah, Sports Illustrated. It's the internet. You can find it on the internet. That's how Jamie got it. Interviewer: Um, I had that Sports Illustrated. But when Larry Holmes was a... a champ, as a boxing fan, I appreciated him. I knew he was a great fighter. I... you know, we would get together with friends and watch, like the, the, the Michael Spinks fight with Larry Holmes. Yeah. When Spinks beat him for the title, it was a big deal. But it wasn't a big deal culturally. Yeah. People didn't care as much. But then you came around. And when you watching heavyweight boxing, if heavyweight boxing wasn't... it wasn't boring again. It was the, the most crazy, exciting thing in sports. When your fights would go on, it would be about, "Should I pay for this? How long is this going to last?" Like, that had never existed. Interviewee: Yeah. That's pretty weird. People tell me about the time they all chipped in. I never think about it like that. You know, sometimes... when it comes to my realization of the situation, I forget that I'm that guy. I forget that I trained that hard. And I became a fighter and stuff.
Interviewer: Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you. Like, do you... does it seem like a dream? Interviewee: Pretty much. Like a blur. Because I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be 19 years old, 20 years old, to be that famous. It was a trip. Who can handle that? Is anybody... Interviewer: Can anybody handle that? Interviewee: No. It was a trip. But it was just what Cus D'Amato, you know, that was his blueprint to make me a teenage superstar.
Interviewer: Did he give you advice on how to handle pressure and fame and... Interviewee: Oh, the pressure and everything, but, you know... he says, "Really no ingredients in how to handle fame." You know what I mean? We have to see what... what department of fame is your problem and we have to work on that issue from there. But, you know, no one knows how to conduct themselves under that kind of pressure.
Interviewer: No. It's at the level of fame, too. It's like, there's so many... You realize there's so many levels of fame. And then Mike's is still just extraordinary, where like people, people walk away from their job, like in an airport. They're supposed to be at the cash register and they run out. You know, they leave their job to go say hi. That's not... you know, most of the time, you're like, "Oh, that's who that person is." It's a... Interviewee: Totally different thing. How weird is that? That's pretty weird. When I... it took time for me to get used to that stuff. I used to be one of those, "Get the fuck away from me, man. What are you doing? You creep." You know? Because I never knew how to conduct myself. Yeah. "Mike, come here. Take a picture of my mother. Take a picture of my kid. Take a picture here. Take a picture here. I love you." Just. And I'm like, "Whoa, dude. Cool out." You know what I mean? But now, you know, I understand. This is just what it is.
Interviewer: It is what it is, and you're not gonna be able to stop it. Yeah. I've seen you at the UFC before. You're very calm around people when people are grabbing at you, want to take pictures. You just... just relax. Interviewee: The UFC is awesome because everybody's nuts. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's definitely a wild environment.
Interviewer: What do you think Khabib's gonna do now? Interviewee: What I think? Who? Khabib? Yeah. Um, well, he does whatever the fuck he wants to do. That's what I think. I think that guy's probably the best lightweight of all time. He's a monster. Incredible. He, um, I think he's probably gonna have some fights at 170 pounds eventually. Interviewer: If I'd imagine, at 155, there's, you know, there's good fights for him. Tony Ferguson's a great fight for him. Um, I'm really interested in seeing that. Uh, I'm really interested in seeing him going up. I'm really interested in seeing him fight at 170 pounds. Interviewee: Who's up there from the fight? Interviewer: Well, first of all, Tyron Woodley, who's the champ at 170. That that would be an insane fight. George St-Pierre, if he decided to come back and make a big super fight, that would be an insane fight. I think 170 has a lot of opportunities for him, but I think 155 does too. They just have to figure out who's gonna fight him. He's an international superstar now, you know? Khabib, especially the way he smashed Conor. Conor's such a superstar already, that the way Khabib won and did it so dominant. I think he's... I think he's through the roof now. I think when people... when he comes back and people see the pay-per-view numbers of his fights, they're going to realize how, how huge this guy is because he's so interesting. He's very humble, very, very he's very polite, very well-spoken, very religious guy. Lives with his family. Lives with his parents. Lives with his parents and his family, I believe. Yeah. I hope I'm not speaking out of school. I believe that's true. And obviously doesn't have to for money. I mean, he's rich as shit now. Yeah. But he's just a monster. The best, best grappler I've ever seen inside the 155-pound division. He just smashes people.
Interviewer: What do you think about Jon Jones, though? Interviewee: In what way? Interviewer: Skills. Interviewee: He's phenomenal. Incredible. The best ever using distance. He knows distance better than anybody. He's a master at knowing when he can hit you and you can't hit him. I miss watching him fight, you know what I mean? He's not fighting much anymore. Interviewer: He's back. He just won. Just won the title again. Just fought Alexander Gustafsson. Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. A couple of weeks ago. Yeah. For the, uh, belt title. It was Daniel Cormier relinquished his title. And it was like... it's weird, right? Like, Cormier is the champ because Jon Jones tested positive for something, so they stripped him, and then Cormier became the champ. It's, uh, you know, I think they'll probably fight again. Whether they fight again at heavyweight or light heavyweight, really. Interviewer: Yeah. I think Cormier and Jon Jones... if Cormier wants to, if he wants to keep going. But he says he wants to retire soon. He's 40. You know? Interviewee: Yeah. He still looks good though. He looks great. Especially at heavyweight. In heavyweight, he doesn't have to cut weight. He's got so much strength and just so agile. He's such an unbelievable wrestler, too. I mean, his wrestling skill, his skill level and understanding of wrestling is so high. It's so above most people. Anybody fight outside of Jing? Jon Jones dominated. Interviewer: Yeah. That's how good Jon is. Jon's that good. He's that... I mean, it just sucks that he's had so many controversies in his life, but I'm hoping he puts all that behind him.
Interviewer: Have you ever spoken with him about that? Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. Never about his personal life, anything, but we met before and talked. Interviewer: You're a guy who's gone, I mean, when you went through legal problems yourself, you, you overcame, you came out of it on the other end. I think would think a guy like him could benefit a lot from... Interviewee: Yeah, but you know, it's just so difficult. And it's so unfortunate that he has to go through something like that, you know? Interviewer: Do you think so? Yes, it's really unfortunate. You know, because sometimes people, um, they don't survive situations like that because they're so wild and they're having a good time too much in the party. And then the champ, it has to... it has to come to an end. That stuff. If you don't bring it to an end, it's gonna bring it to... it's gonna come to its own end. It might not like that way it ends.
Interviewer: So you think for a guy like him, maybe getting in trouble was a good thing? Interviewee: If only if he learns from experiences like that, you know? I think I was just a wild guy. I was really a wild guy. I look at myself now, I say to myself, when I spent all those, um, trips in those, um, psych wards and stuff, what was that all about? What was wrong with me back then? You know? Interviewer: Yeah. Interviewee: And I must say, I was really disturbed back then.
Interviewer: But you're somebody who got to the point where you got... It's really fascinating because I know, you know, you're a public figure, so we, I, you know, I've been able to watch you my whole life. You went through all that stuff, and then you got to this point where you're very self-reflective. And you look at, you are able to comment on it. I don't think most... I mean, most people, regardless of whether they're famous or not, just still don't get to that point where they're able to look back and examine who they were. And doing wild shit. And with ruthless honesty. Yeah. That's what's so... Interviewee: Reflecting yourself to discover who you really are. Yeah.
Interviewer: When you're 20 years old, and all of a sudden you're the heavyweight champion of the world, just a few years ago you were poor, and now all of a sudden you're the king of the world. That's really crazy. You know, so young. It's really crazy. I was... I was unable to handle that. I wasn't expecting that. That was a really sucker punch right there. Interviewee: That's a real sucker punch right there. I wasn't ready for that one.
Interviewer: Charlie Murphy told us a story, and it's animated. It's on YouTube now, of you and him coming over your house in a limousine, and you had, was it a lion or a tiger? Interviewee: Tiger. Dude. It is one of the craziest fucking stories. I always... when... so for people that don't know, I got to hang out with you at one of my shows one time and it was a great. I had the best time talking about everything. Interviewer: What made you think you could get a tiger? How did that even happen? Interviewee: Hey, I'm in... This is really interesting. I'm... I'm in prison at the time. So I'm in prison. I'm talking to my car dealer at the time, and he has some cars that belong to a friend of mine that's both a friend of ours. And he's discussing if he doesn't pay for these cars, I'm gonna sell these cars to somebody and get some horses and stuff. I said, "Well, you can get horses and trade horses in for cars." Because I had a lot of cars, I thought I'd probably get some horses too. And he said, "Yeah, man, you get... you get cougars, lions, tigers." I know this guy. Got excited. I said, "You do? Can you get me some tigers?" He said, "Yeah." And the guy told me... and the guy said, "Man, imagine how cool that big you'd be." Because I had a bunch of fans. "Imagine that, man. You'd be in the Aston Martin or for Robin, you have a tiger right next to you." And I'm a young guy. I'm saying to myself, "Wow, that would be cool." Right? "After." Yeah. "Get me some cubs, man." And then when I came home, I had those cubs right there waiting for me.
Interviewer: So you raised them as cubs? Interviewee: Yeah. Because that's how you were. Because I would see footage of you like fucking smacking them around and jumping on one of your tigers and I was like, "Holy shit." Interviewer: And I had them since they were babies. They had their mothers. Their mothers. Their babies now. Interviewee: It never gets... This is a crazy picture. You in your underwear with a tiger on a chain. That is that is one of the... that's the chance right there. That's you at peak crazy. Interviewer: Yeah. Insane. Yeah.
Interviewee: Time. What was going through my mind? I don't know. What made me think about my friend said, "Mike, you can get some awesome animals." And I think, "Really? Are you serious?" I'm gonna get some horses. Interviewer: Everybody does it though. Those are one of the things about, uh, with what's his face from Narcos? Oh, Pablo Escobar. He got like a zoo. Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. Had a whole crazy zoo. They all do it.
Interviewer: Once you get like that rich, you're like, "Just get some animals." Yeah. You want to fuck with some animals. Interviewee: And they throw people in there with the lions and tigers, huh? Interviewer: Yeah. It's a real common thing. That is super-rich people. They start getting lions. That's right. Tigers and shit. Michael Jackson had all that stuff. Interviewee: That's right. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson and everything. Yeah. They never land too. You have to have like a zoo in his back. Interviewer: That's true. But he had weird shit. Like, weird birds. I don't think... maybe he had a monkey or something. Interviewee: He did have weird... No, nothing dangerous.
Interviewer: I hung up there before at the Playboy Mansion. This is at the end of his career. That was like in, what was it? 10 years ago or something? It was pretty awesome. Yeah. That guy, man. What a life he lived. You. Yeah. Oh, and his pajamas. They're sucking his balls when he's 80 and... Interviewee: Shit. They're like, "Oh no." It was 80s. Deep into his. Deep. Yeah. In his 90s. Yeah. That's... yeah. He really... Here's the thing. That dude lived the lifestyle he was talking about. You know, a lot of people talk shit. You don't really do that. He was really doing it. Oh, he really is. If I started living that... Interviewee: Lifestyle, I'd be dark. I started getting dark. You know, you can have a little... You walk. That's just... too much.
Interviewer: Yeah, too much. Wait, one other thing I gotta, because I gotta run. And I wanted to... Interviewee: Where you going, man? Interviewer: I gotta go. I gotta go meet the wife, man. Interviewee: Oh, yeah. But they'll do it. Um, I read one time because... all right, so for people that know, I met Mike on a flight. And it was a surreal experience. You know, like from from being a kid and thinking like, "This is Superman." That's what I thought as a kid. It's just, you know what I mean? Like seeing those, when you see it as a kid, too, I think it's different. You're just like, "Whoa, that is so nuts." Like these 11-second knockouts. And, you know, it's so bizarre. Interviewee: Periodically, even to this day, people come up to me and talk about the experience. They saw him. He talked about meeting me. And said, "Is that true?" Interviewer: All the time. It's special. It's honest. It's on, uh, it's on Mostly Stories. Is that true? Interviewee: Yeah. Mostly Stories. And it was, uh, it was a surreal experience. And, and you know, we spoke on the plane. And then like when I thought we were done talking, you know, I faced forward. And then he came back and like tapped me on the shoulder. I was like, "Oh shit." Like, Mike's talking to me. I'm down here like, seatbelt, seat-belted in. But then we land. And then he was like, "Oh, where's your show?" And, and I go, "Oh, here it is. Here." I give him the number. Never expect to hear. Hits me up the next day. And he's like, "We're coming to your show." And I was like, "Oh my god." And I really did say, like, "I'm amazed that you're coming." And he said, "It's all love." And I just said, "I love you." Because I didn't know how to, what to say. And then that was good. He's like, "Cool." He was... he's like, "All right, man." And then I have the phone. And then I... I remember I called the, uh, the Pittsburgh Improv manager. And I go, "Hey, man, I just go, you're not gonna believe this, but Tyson's coming to the fight tonight." He goes, "Mike Tyson?" I go, "No, fucking Tyson Chicken." Yeah. "Mike Tyson's coming tonight." He's like, "I'll corridor off a whole thing." And, you know, and I didn't know he was at the show. Because it, the show had already started. And I didn't see him arrive. When we go back to the green room after, I walk off stage, and he grabs me. And he goes, "Let's go to the green room." So he took me to my green room. Right? Like he was like, and I was like, "Fuck yeah." And we hung out in that green room over an hour. Just shooting the shit and talking. And when I forgot, like, the time had passed. I opened the door. The entire staff. Entire staff is lined up at the door to meet him. Like, that's the effect that he has on the group, you know? Like they're waiting in a line for an hour outside the green room. And, like, you know, we talked about boxing, about life. It was... it was fascinating. Um, one of the things I really appreciated about, uh, you as a fighter was like, that you really knew that you were putting on a show. So that's something that I feel like I miss. You know, there's... there's no one that put on the show the way you did. Like, you knew that people bought tickets and paid for the pay-per-view. And then it, you know, it's still like one of my great memories, man. It was a thrill to meet you. So I just wanted to stop by and say hi.
Interviewer: Sounds like you're wrapping it up. Interviewee: Yeah, he has to go. Interviewer: I do. I do. Oh, by the way, did you buy seven Bentleys? Interviewee: That were the same color? No. But I bought around seven Bentleys before. Damn. They're Rolls-Royces. Interviewer: I wanted to ask you, did you give away one when you crashed it? Right? Interviewee: Yeah. Let me tell you that story. I wish you... at the time, Robin Givens and we were in some fast food drink, we were ordering food. And she went in my pocket, I guess, to get some money out of my pocket to pay for. And she had some, some condoms came out. And she was mad. So she got in the car. And then boom, she crashed the car into another, um, car that was just parked there. Boom. And she hit somebody. And she hurt their arm. And then, um, the cops came. And so the cops came. And the cops were saying, "Hey, what happened here?" Right? And, um, I was afraid that they were gonna arrest me or arrest us. So I said, "Well, nothing happened, officer." Um, "Nothing." And the guy was... and it was the guy with a broken arm. I said, "You know, sir, why don't you just take the car? You know, you deserve it because you've been doing a lot..." Because I didn't want to get arrested. I didn't have a license, anything. I didn't want my wife to get in trouble. I said, "Why don't you just take it? You know, maybe it was around 230 at the time." So, "Why don't you just take it? It'd be okay." And the guy said, "Hey, don't tell me that." And then once he said that, I got him. I said, "I got him." And I said, "Hey, man, take it, man. Do this, man. You deserve this. Take it." And they took it. But before that, the guy, some guy's arm was broken, and he... I gave him my money. I said, "I'll take the money." And then he came back to the police. "My arm is better now." "Get away from me." "I'm not gonna tell you to get away from me no more." Because he didn't want to mess this deal up with this car. Because the guy... Oh, that's not gonna get me again. That is hilarious. So the guy backed off. And I said, "Hey, go ahead, man. I'll see you later." And I took off. My wife, I didn't want us to get in trouble. But they made him give away the car. Right? They made him... No, he... because I went back to my office. I said, "Get my fucking car back." I went to the... Really? He got fired. He did. Yeah. Oh my god. He's probably hearing this now. "I'm gonna get that bastard, Tyson. I wanted my..." Give me my car back! Oh, no. You imagine Mike Tyson calls you up and says, "Give me my fucking car." Man. Like, shit. Yeah. It's outside, man. I got it. Goddamn it. Listen...
Interviewee: I gotta tell you something. I gotta tell you something. You guys know I embarked on the marijuana business. Yes. It's been this... this is a beautiful box. That is a beautiful box, by the way. Awesome. Thank you, man, for accepting it. Interviewer: My pleasure. Yeah, that's a cool ass box, man. Yeah. Tyson Ranch is going to be opening up pretty shortly. You guys have them too. I saw the plans. Interviewee: This is a big deal. I mean, this place is gigantic. Which state? It's in California. It is here. Yeah. Yeah. They're setting up like a resort. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's gonna be the best facility in the world, man. It's gonna be... it's gonna have an acre-long lake. Wow. Yeah. You could go like, you know, it's gonna be camping, glamping. Like glamping. Glamorous camping.
Interviewer: How about some tigers and shit? Put some wild animals. Interviewee: It's a possibility. My partner, Rob Hickman, was discussing that too. Interviewer: Where are those tigers? Interviewee: Well, I had them for like 14 years, so I had to get rid of... You know what do you do when you want to get rid of a tiger? Interviewer: A sanctuary. Interviewee: Oh. All right.
Interviewer: Fuck. I gotta run. I love you. Interviewee: I love you. I love you too, buddy. Interviewer: Look better. Cannabis, dude. There it is. Interviewee: Yeah. Congrats on that, man. That looks dope. Awesome, man. I'm so excited about this stuff. This is... Interviewer: I love embarking on this cannabis stuff. This is so awesome. Yeah, you seem to be really enjoying this. Like when you're talking to your partners out there, you're having a good time with this. Interviewee: Oh, man. I never thought that in a million years I'd be able to do this. And legalize. Yeah.
Interviewer: When did you start like regularly smoking weed? Interviewee: Since I was like 10 years old. The whole time you were fighting, you were regularly smoking weed? Interviewer: Well, you know, when you're a kid, your mother gives you liquor and marijuana for you to make you think that you're gonna go to sleep or something. Interviewee: Really? Interviewer: Yeah. Interviewee: That never happened in my house. Never. Yeah. My mother was alcoholic. Damn. That's that's harsh. Liquor and marijuana. See if you go to sleep. Yeah. It didn't work. I don't think so. No. I think so.
Interviewer: Do you, uh, what, what benefits do you get out of marijuana? Like, what does it do for you? Interviewee: Hey, man, um, if I didn't... I have a bad day. Yeah. I'm really moody guy. Without it, and it just, um, it smooths me out. So I take it. I'm a whole different person. I'm really on top of my game. I'm boiling. Interviewer: Yeah. I feel the same way sometimes. It makes me nicer. Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. Calms me down.
Interviewer: Do you... I like who I am when I smoke, you know what I mean? When I weed, I don't... sometimes I don't like who I am sometimes. That's just the real. Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. I don't like that guy. I want to get away from that guy.
Interviewer: Well, you know, I was talking to Michael Irvin once. He was explaining to me that when children grow up in high-stress environments, that their genes are wired to to have a propensity towards violence. That if they're norm, if it's normal, if it's around them all the time when they're growing up, and when they're in the womb, yeah. I agree. When their mother's under extreme stress, if they live in a bad neighborhood, and it's it's hard for some people, like yourself, that did grow up in an environment like that, to ever reach where you're at right now. Just a place of peace. And if you can do that through marijuana, or whatever it is, yoga, meditation, whatever, whatever you do to get there, like we should be happy that you can get there. That's what we... Interviewee: Listen, I am so grateful that, um, I embarked on this. You know, I've never been a person to... this, its magnitude of this kind of relaxation. I was enjoying my time with you. I was very uptight and I was very uncomfortable with myself.
Interviewer: Did you feel any better after you worked out when you were young? Like that? Interviewee: Absolutely. But my workouts, you know what? Um, the best thing that ever happened to me that I retired from boxing. Because me working out and me getting... I was so intense with this. My whole, my whole objective was hurting people and wanting to be the best. And my ego took over. And I'm like, "Tyson, I'm the best to ever live." And all this bullshit. And, um... dealing with my partner, Rob Hickman, I happened to embark on this, come across this thing called the Toad. Are you familiar with the Toad? Interviewer: Yeah. What you're talking about is 5-MeO-DMT. That's it right there. Interviewee: Yeah. Yeah. And I came across that. Um, I smoked this, um, I don't know, this medicine, drug, whatever you want to call it. And stuff. And, um, I've never been the same. I look at life different. I look at people differently. And, um, the experience, I can't even express, really. It's almost like dying and being reborn. Interviewer: Yeah. Um, I had the exact same experience. That's what it felt like to me, too. Like, you stop existing. The 5-MeO-DMT. There's two. Tell me, what's the deal with that? What the hell's going on here? Interviewee: 5-MeO-DMT is produced by your brain. But what it is, is DMT with an oxygen molecule attached to it. So regular DMT is N,N-dimethyltryptamine. And then 5-MeO-DMT is DMT with like a very... there's a very subtle change to the molecule. And that subtle change, for some reason, takes away the visuals.
Interviewer: You've done regular DMT too, right? Interviewee: Yes. Interviewer: Regular DMT is rich with visuals. Very strained, bright, colorful, impossible to describe visuals. Yes. And yes... Interviewee: It's inconceivable. Inconceivable is the best way to put it. Yeah.
Interviewer: But I try to explain it to some people. My wife and I, I just... it's just... I don't have the words to explain it. Interviewee: That's exactly what I always say. I've done a terrible job explaining it to everybody. Every time I've tried, it just doesn't work.
Interviewer: With all those things, they, they give you perspective. It's almost like you're dying. You, you, you're submissive, you're humble, you know what I mean? You're vulnerable, but you're invincible, still. In all, you know? It's that weird feeling. But you feel like you're part of the universe. When you're separate from your ego, you realize this whole thing, you're a part of this whole thing. And this whole thing is unstoppable. It's just, it's a gigantic, huge, all-encompassing, almost like a living thing, you know? Interviewee: Joan, this is what I also realized too, after going through the experience. You realize how insignificant you are sometimes without your ego. Yes. You know? You realize why you're not really much that you really thought you were. Yeah. You are and you aren't. Obviously, you are in everyday life. I mean, you go places, you have a dramatic effect on people. You mean a lot. You mean a lot to those people that you run into. You mean a lot to the people that you love and that love you. But we all do. And when the, no one stand... no, it's all, it's all relative. No one, no one is irreplaceable, but everyone is special to someone or something. And at least to themselves. But we're all the same. We're all part of this weird, crazy, gigantic organism that's the human race. You know?
Interviewer: So, did you say that my mentor, Cus D'Amato, his objective was to think of nothing? You're nothing. Nothing's nothing. But the objective and that was the psychological warfare. You know, "Nothing matters. You're nothing. Nothing." My only thing that matters is objective and getting through, accomplishing that objective by going through these methods of boxing. Interviewee: Do you ever stop and think about how fortunate it was you ran into that guy? Listen, to this day, I really don't understand that. So how did this happen? Because so many... Listen, by the time I was born, he was 66 years old. By the time I was born. Yeah. Crazy. So many people could... you know, can't even explain it.
Interviewer: He was a magnificent individual. He was an amazing guy, an amazing part of boxing. And, um, with an unprecedented grasp of the mindset required for combat sports. That was the thing that always really stood out about him. Like, he was a guy that was so... he was so well-versed in the mindset. I would listen to his speeches that he would talk when he would talk about you, and he would talk about boxing, we talk about fear. And about a fear can be like a fire. Can cook your food, or it can burn your house down. And you have to... you have to control it. And when he would describe it like it would be so enlightening. He was such a man of wisdom. That when he would describe things, they would sink in. They would, they would, they would. Somebody could say the same thing. But they, with him, he had so much... Interviewee: Life. He was so many hats. He was a psychiatrist. He was a doctor. He was a father. He was a mother. You know, he was just an all-around individual. Yeah. And with an amazing knowledge of boxing. And for a guy like you, it was almost like it was ordained. And that's what I always said. It was meant for me to meet this guy. Because I had no way, in a million years. Everybody said, "You know, where you gonna be champ? You're too small. You're too short. No way. This guy's too big for you." He's always said, "This is the greatest fight I ever lived." He's always saying this about me. I'm like, "Oh God, this guy's just souping me up." I never thought I could... you know, achieve what he was saying. The things he was saying was just so, um, gigantic in my eyes at the time. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, when it all happened and it turned out that he was true. And you have to absorb all this when you're 20 years old. You know, it's... I would say this about Justin Bieber. And I don't think Justin Bieber nearly had to deal with what you had to deal with. Your experience was so much crazier, because you were not just an incredibly famous guy, you were the baddest man on the planet. So there was like an aura to you everywhere you went. People wanted to see you. You know, 50-year-old men don't give a fuck about Justin Bieber. No disrespect. He's a great guy, a great singer. But it's not... He's like young girls, for young girls, that guy's unbelievably famous. But he's been famous since he was a little kid. I'm like... when people hear about him going crazy, amazing. When people hear about him going insane, I'm like, "Of course he's going insane." You have no idea what it would be like to be him. And to be 17 years old, and girls literally trying to break into his house to throw a pussy at him. They're coming down chimneys, they're flying in on parachutes, they're doing anything they can. They just want to be around him. And you want him to be normal? Oh, man. Poor guy. No one can handle that.
Interviewer: What kind of music you're listening to? Interviewee: I listen to everything, man. I do. I listen. A lot of classic rock. For whatever reason. But I've been listening to a lot of Kanye West over the last few weeks.
Interviewer: Tell me what he's talking about. Kanye? Interviewee: Yeah. Well, he's talking about a lot of crazy shit. He's talking... he actually talked about DMT in one of his recent songs. Interviewer: Really? Interviewee: You think he did that before? I think he did. Oh, man. Well, I know he's friends with Kid Cudi. Kid Cudi's had some psychedelic experiences. Interviewer: Once you go there, it's just... you don't want to do nothing else again.
Interviewee: Well, it puts it all in perspective. It lets you see that, uh, as much as this thing seems to be important, this is all temporary. And you're a part of forever. And it also allows you to become, um, comfortable with death. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. You know who said that? Larry Hagman. Remember that guy? Dallas. Yeah. From, uh, JR from Dallas. He did an interview with CNN. And I Dream of Jeannie, as well. Interviewee: Yeah. That's right. He sprung it on him on CNN once. He was talking about how he did acid. He took a big dose of acid. And he's never worried about death ever again. That it just alleviated his his worry about passing on. Interviewer: That wow. This is that... Because I felt the same way. And I said, "Wow. It doesn't matter anymore." Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewer: I think DMT, even more specifically, because they think, yeah, why does it affect the mind that way? What causes it to affect the mind that way? Interviewee: They don't totally know. They know that your brain makes it. They know that your body makes it. They should say, they know that it's producing your liver and your lungs. And there's some evidence now because they found it in rats that the pineal gland produces it. Which is like, that's the third eye of Eastern mysticism. That gland, actually, in rats, they've proven produces DMT. Interviewer: And they think it does so in people too. You know, once I did it, I wanted to do it again and again and again. And they said, "You shouldn't do it too much, Mike." But I said, "Man, I gotta, you know, grasp what's going on here." Why am I feeling it? Why did this, in a weird way, like, humble you? Interviewee: I don't think you should listen to the people say you shouldn't do it too much. I think you should do it as much as you want. Interviewer: That's what I agree with too. I agree. You can handle it. If you can handle being like Tyson... Interviewee: You can handle doing DMT. Yeah. That's where I think I'm going. I think I'm going in that direction. Interviewer: Well, I mean, it's not something you should do all day, every day. But you can learn a lot from it. It's... and it's very beneficial. And very strange that it's illegal. You know, that you... Interviewee: It's illegal. Yeah.
Interviewer: I noticed that even though Terrence McKenna had a joke about it, because your body's making it, so everybody's holding. We all have it, you know? It's illegal. But it's like making blood illegal. Interviewee: Everybody has it. And a while where they go to scenario when they find these toads? Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: I've never experienced it from the toad. I've only watched it on television. Interviewee: Oh, with the way they extract. They grab them and they squeeze it. They bust his pimples. And they bust it on the glass of marrow. And then they take it off. And they let it harden. Yeah. They... they let it dry in the sun. They scrape it off with a razor blade. Interviewer: Yes. I've only had it synthetically made in a laboratory. You used to be able to buy it online. You used to be able to buy like a can of it, like this big, enough to get like a whole state high. You just buy it online. It was totally legal. Incredible. Yeah. It's weird. It's bizarre that it's illegal. Well, they would say "not for human consumption." But I don't know what the... You're doing with it if you're not using it for human consumption. But you, you used to be able to buy...
Interviewee: I've never felt anything like that before. No. Nothing like that. Makes me not want to do anything. Nothing else can supersede that. Interviewer: How long ago did it happen? Interviewee: Around two months ago. Yeah. Interviewer: Did you write down what happened after it happened? Or did you record it? Interviewee: No. I wish I did. Yeah. I wish I did. Yeah. Me too.
Interviewer: If, like, it goes away like a dream, right? It comes off. You know, you're so scared. You know, it starts off like this to me. Like, "No, no, no." Yeah. I love it. I love you. I love you. I love you. Yeah. You love everybody. Interviewee: Yeah. So passed out. Interviewer: Did you have a hard time letting go at the beginning? Interviewee: I was fighting it. I was saying, "Stop." "I wanted to stop." "Just jump." "Stop this now." "Stop." And the guy was like, "Hey, I can't. You gotta go for the ride, dude." And it was like, "Oh man. It's like I'm dying. Things are going in my face. I'm seeing the Aztec things. I'm seeing toads. I'm just seeing weird animals and things. It's flying. It's just... it's like another chamber. It's boom. Flashing." Yeah. And you're gone. It's like a rocket. You're taking off. Yeah. It's beyond your imagination. Yeah. Death is inconceivable. Can't even explain it to no one.
Interviewer: Well, I'm hoping that, um, they they start with psilocybin. Because, uh, I know MAPS, they're they're doing some great work with that, trying to get these things legalized. Especially, they're doing MDMA studies with veterans and people with PTSD and they're having great results. They're moving into psilocybin. They would love to get psilocybin legal. And it's up for ballot, I think. Was in Oregon? Is that where it is? It's up for, I think Oregon is up for legalization this year. And it may be eventually in California as well. They may... Interviewee: How you think they'll do with that? Interviewer: It should be legal. It doesn't kill anybody. It should be. It's not a bad thing. If they regulate it, if they make it for therapeutic use, and just set up centers where experts can show. But they shouldn't make it prohibitive for people to own it or even grow their own. It's not a bad idea to set up places where people can do it under a professional's care, a shaman's care, a physician's care. That's a good idea. But making it illegal is a bad idea, because it helps a lot of people. You know, people think of that as a party drug. They think you're gonna do mushrooms and freak out and go fucking run around naked and... Interviewee: Ah, what's on mushrooms? Oh, you do mushrooms? I love mushrooms. Yeah. Interviewer: Well, psilocybin and DMT are very closely related chemically. All those really potent psychedelic drugs are very closely related. They all break down in, in some similar path inside your brain and and give you that that weird ego-dissolving experience, you know? That's one...
Interviewee: Most of the drugs you do with most... um, um, um, ego-enhancing, right? Like coke. Yeah. Interviewer: You're just gone, man. Yeah. You know, you've never had coffee. Interviewee: I've never had coke. Never. Never. Interviewer: Oh, man.
Interviewee: You feel like I missed out? Interviewer: No, you didn't miss out on nothing, man. Interviewee: Yeah, that one I ducked. When I was in high school, my friend's cousin used to sell it. And he... he wasted away to nothing. Him and his girlfriend would hang out in the attic, never come out. They would just sell coke and watch TV. It was bad. Like it was like a vampire bit him. He just became a... Once you're getting that kind of... vicious cycle, it's a wrap. Yeah. Yeah. So I... I ducked it. I ducked it early. Never did coke, man.
Interviewer: When's the first time you did coke? Interviewee: I don't know. I was a kid. 11, 12. I got involved with drugs early in life. Interviewer: Wow. That's crazy. Interviewee: 11, 12. Yeah. I was still living in, um, Brownsville, Brooklyn, when I first did cocaine. Wow. That's a crazy... I was... Listen, I would never let my children. I have a 10-year-old daughter and an 8-year-old. I would never let them live the life that I lived. I would hate that. I always fought... Interviewer: So hard. Never want to be in the environment that I grew up in. Interviewee: Of course.
Interviewer: Well, you know, you have the benefit of having gone through it. You know, no one else could ever understand how, how, how difficult any of your life must have been for you. It's got to be one of the harder things. When you did that documentary, it's an amazing documentary. When you're very honest, you're very honest about all your experiences. And the one thing I took away after that, like, "No one can understand." You could hear a guy talk like this. I could hear you say these things. I could see the videos of your fights. To see the videos of your experience, but to understand the life that you lived, it's impossible. It's just a guess. It's like a guess for someone like me from the outside. It's just really interesting. Interviewee: I used to look at... I think about this young kid from Brooklyn, New York, comes to Cus D'Amato at 13, 12, you know? And all of a sudden, I have low self-esteem. This guy gives me this big fucking ego. You know what I mean? I live by the, you know, I live by the rules of that ego. And that's... and I've accomplished so much. A dominator ego. You're... you're set all about destroying people. Just anybody. You could be a lawyer, 200 pounds. I'm staring you down. It's just, it was a weird environment growing up that way, you know? Because we, as people, we try to avoid fights. You know what I mean? Right. For my instincts, we avoid fights for all our lives. And just to be able... This is what you do. Like, you're a UFC guy. You're a fighter. This is what you do for, um, a job, a lifestyle.
Interviewer: That's pretty bizarre. But you were getting positive reinforcement from thinking like that for the first time in your life? Interviewee: Absolutely. Yeah. Never felt like that before. It was like taking a big drug. Like a luscious. Boom. It felt like you're the man. Then everybody's telling you you're great. You know, for the first time in your life. Never understood that. And you know what else Cus D'Amato used to do with me? He used to take me to a hypnotist. He was a hypnotist as well. Yeah. They used to go into the hypnotist motions. Interviewer: What kind of shit do they make you do? Interviewee: You know how they do it? If you relax, you go under. You totally focus on blackness, nothingness. Right. You go under. And it's being the savage, intelligent animal. You're working. You're gonna do this. You're gonna be a ferocious animal. You're gonna fight. Put both hands to the body. You'll use your jab. You'll do this in ferocious fashion. And they faked all that in me. As I was younger. Interviewer: And you were like 12, 13 years old? Interviewee: Wow. Interviewer: So they're putting you under and just teaching you that mindset? Interviewee: Yeah.
Interviewer: Whoa. Did he give you any advice on how to shut it off? Interviewee: No. No. He was probably like, "I don't have any time." He was probably like, "I don't have any time. The kid's 13." How old was Cus at the time? Like 70. There's no time. There's no time. I'm not gonna teach him the off switch. Just hit the gas. That's what it was. The gas. "We're going to destroy these guys. These guys are in our way of, you know, greatness, glory."
Interviewer: It's one of the hardest things that many fighters I've and that I've watched over the years have the problem of shutting it off. Like turning it on and living like that and just wanting to be a dominator. But then learning how to be a father. Learning how to be a man. My first, my first lifetime with children and stuff. Trying to do this stuff, man. I felt so disastrous. You know, it was just, um, I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea what I was... what arena I was stepping into. It was just, um, it was just disastrous. I find out, I spend most of my adult life now apologizing to my kids. Interviewee: You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. Interviewer: Being such a horrible father. Did you think they understand, like, the shit that you were going through? Interviewee: They understand. I have no idea. No. I don't understand. I just try to basically make sure that part of my life is empty now. I live a different life for my kids now. Yeah.
Interviewer: For my kids. Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. It's beautiful that you, you, like Thomas saying earlier, you have a lot of self-reflection. You've, you've managed to look at your life and find out what has value to you. What, what helps you. You always have to do self-evaluation. Interviewee: I'm just a strong believer in that. Yeah. You know, somebody has to check you. You have to check yourself. Interviewer: I agree. Yeah. Well, especially a guy like you, who's, you know, you've been checked. Your ego's been checked. Your life has been checked. You've had so many down moments as well as up moments. You've had the, the full ride of experiences. Interviewee: Never thought I would survive with my ego being checked. And no idea that that wasn't what it was about.
Interviewer: So you thought if your ego checked, you would go away? Interviewee: Probably nothing without my ego. Wow. Yeah. Interviewer: Well, I mean, it makes sense. When you're going through all that hypnosis when you're 12 and 13 years old, that's a crazy thing to do to a kid. Interviewee: Because it was super. I had no idea. But I wanted to do it so bad. I wanted to succeed so bad.
Interviewer: You could tell. You know, I watched a video of you, uh, real recently. You were about 16, 17 years old. And you were sparring with some big guy who was a professional heavyweight. And you were... it was, what was fascinating to me about it wasn't just watching you move around when you were young and still learning, but it was also, you were upset at yourself after it was over. You didn't think it went well. And, and I was like, "I don't remember that." Interviewee: You don't remember? Interviewer: It was an interesting video, man. You were like, "It didn't go well." I could tell it didn't go well. Interviewee: I was a sick perfectionist. Interviewer: That's what I was going to say. It seemed like it. Like you were obsessed.
Interviewee: That's my whole life. That's all I did was look at boxing, watch boxing, read about fighters. It was all about fighters. Fighters were my God. Fighter. Oh, you know that guy? That's a fighter. I said, "I want to be around them." Be that groupie. Interviewer: That's another amazing occurrence. Imagine that. You also knew Jim Jacobs and that fight library. That's all I did was watch films over there. Amazing. This is pre-VHS. Right? People had VHS, but not many. And there's fight... Interviewee: Those fights weren't on VHS. No way. Remember before, like, if you didn't... if you missed the fight, you weren't gonna see it again, right? Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Jim Jacobs, he kept those things on like a regular old projector type thing. If you listen to the voiceover on some of those old fights, it's Jim Jacobs. Yeah. Yeah. It's him doing commentary on some of the old fights that didn't have any volume. Interviewee: Study all these guys all day and all night. You studied them. Interviewer: Yeah. It was through you that I learned about a lot of fighters. When you would talk about Jack Dempsey, talk about different fighters from the old days. I learned about a lot of those guys from you. I went back and watched some of those tapes. And now it's beautiful. Now you can just get on YouTube and you can see whatever you want. Everything. See all of it. But to go back and go back to my office and president...
Interviewee: If you're going to see this... Yeah. Exactly. I can't wait. I want you to come by to the ranch when... I would love to. I'm in... Interviewer: Productive. It's going to be awesome. So you said 2022? Yeah. So, four years, what is it? Yeah. Four years from now, three years from now. It'll be pretty awesome. That's awesome. Well, the plans look amazing. You know how long you guys have been working towards this? Interviewee: Hey, listen. We had seen the property. And then we purchased it. And we were just, um, we were just overwhelmed with it. This is probably, what, I don't know, maybe a year ago? Maybe not even. Maybe, yeah, maybe a year or so. A year and a half.
Interviewer: So are you gonna have a gym up there? Interviewee: Hey, I never thought, but we will have. Because we'll have the wellness center. Interviewer: Dude, how great would it be if you taught like a boxing class? Interviewee: I don't know about that stuff though. Interviewer: We're gonna hang out there and work out. Just a fun boxing class. Like hitting the heavy bag. Just something. You don't have to get people beating each other up. Do you know how much people would pay to smoke weed and come learn how to box from you? That's gonna be awesome. Interviewee: They can smoke weed with me. That'd be cool.
Interviewer: Do you smoke weed with people? Just regular folks? Interviewee: Yeah. I smoke weed. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to get my wife to smoke with me though. She doesn't smoke. Interviewer: She smokes only at night time. She can't function during the daytime. Interviewee: Oh, right, right. During the day. Interviewer: Well, if you... I would imagine if I was a mother, it would be very hard to get high because I'd get paranoid. You know, I'd be a lot... Interviewee: Yeah. Of course. She doesn't do it during the day. At night time, it's different. Smoke a little weed, relax.
Interviewer: How did you ever do any fighting? Interviewee: I did kickboxing and Taekwondo tournaments. I was, uh, I was pretty good at Taekwondo. I won a bunch of state championships. And I won a few, few national tournaments.
Interviewer: When did you know you wanted to get physical with another human being and do this stuff? Because you know you can't be in the right frame of mind to want to do this stuff. You gotta realize that I was... people that do this stuff are not in the right frame of mind. Yeah. And that's dealing with fear drives you insane. To deal with that drives people insane. I was insane during my career. Interviewee: You're madly insane from fear. Yeah. Obviously, I never went through anything like the level that you went through. But for these full contact Taekwondo fights, I was always scared. But I was scared before that. I was bullied. I moved around a lot. I was a little kid. I was never very big. And we moved from New Jersey to San Francisco when I was seven. From San Francisco to Florida when I was 11. Florida to Boston when I was 14 or 13. So it's just always moving to new schools, always dealing with new kids. And I wasn't big and I didn't know how to fight. And I got picked on. And I didn't like it. So I said, "I want to... I want to figure out how to fight." And so I started getting into martial arts. And I just became obsessed with it. I did it every day. I started teaching. I was teaching at Boston University. I was teaching the Taekwondo course when I was 19. I was competing from the time I was 15. I just threw myself into it. It's all I did
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